DUST Search - Scouts and EWAR. Brainstorming.

IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. Perhaps even more, since the paper-thins would operate at far higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP and having to hug enemy positions (rather than hide behind heavies).

In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options to choose from ...

Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets.
Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP.
Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards.

Dead in .01 seconds or dead in 0.5s makes no difference to me. I get seen, I'm dead, or at the very least, must withdraw. At least, that is how I approach battles. That's how it was pre-1.8, and that was a viable if not ultra-hard-mode playstyle. I believe it still can be done today.

The whole point of scouts having ewar is so they can be stealthy, and have better situational awareness. That is what they should use instead of HP. I don't agree with you saying they're too squishy for combat. It's just a different style of play, and it can be *incredibly* fun to run. You can usually best another merc if they're solo, and you can have great fun with squads and confuse the hell out of them - doesn't require a kill, though it's usually possible.

Also I'm not really seeing a problem with existing alpha weapons - shotgun and nova knife are highly effective. You should be able to get the 2nd shot off before taking fire, and even then if you're skillful (and partly lucky) you can finish off a heavy. And before anyone jumps on the cloak bandwagon, none of what I am describing requires it. Let's not forget the use of REs too.

As for WP - I think it's fine as is. I probably make on average 1000 WP per game. Sometimes it's only 500, other times it's closer to 2000. I know others make far more, but I influence the game too. More so skirmish, but Dom has it's moments.

Please stop thinking scouts can't do combat without HP. They can, they do it effectively, and it brings another dimension to a game.


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Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 205	Posted - 2014.11.14 02:39:00 - [1] - Quote Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for their strictly support roles. Perhaps more, since they'd be doing so at higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP. In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options. Glass-Cannon - SGs and NKs bonuses which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets. Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP but massive passive WP rewards
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 205	Posted - 2014.11.14 02:51:00 - [2] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since they wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. There's an interesting idea. Suppose you got a small amount of wp from squadmates getting kills from your passives? Another thought, suppose we made profile tied to speed? The faster you are, the higher your profile. A noncombat, high risk role would have to generate massive amounts of WP for anyone to run it. Even then, people would eventually tire of lurking about and trying not to die. Which is why I've appended my earlier post with another option or two for your conceptual paper-thin.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 207	Posted - 2014.11.14 03:03:00 - [3] - Quote New Idea! Since Lurking would be immensely boring, we should add a rewarding mini-game to keep folks entertained. Stay alive for X seconds while uncloaked and within scan range of hostiles for progressive "sneak streak" rewards! 30 seconds! +10% WP per target per second 60 seconds! +50% WP per target per second 90 seconds! + 100% WP per target per second 120 seconds! Your very own orbital flux strike! 240 seconds! Your very own hybrid laser strike!
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 209	Posted - 2014.11.14 12:51:00 - [4] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. Perhaps even more, since the paper-thins would operate at far higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP and having to hug enemy positions (rather than hide behind heavies). In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options to choose from ... Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets. Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP. Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards. Dead in .01 seconds or dead in 0.5s makes no difference to me. I get seen, I'm dead, or at the very least, must withdraw. At least, that is how I approach battles. That's how it was pre-1.8, and that was a viable if not ultra-hard-mode playstyle. I believe it still can be done today. The whole point of scouts having ewar is so they can be stealthy, and have better situational awareness. That is what they should use instead of HP. I don't agree with you saying they're too squishy for combat. It's just a different style of play, and it can be incredibly fun to run. You can usually best another merc if they're solo, and you can have great fun with squads and confuse the hell out of them - doesn't require a kill, though it's usually possible. Also I'm not really seeing a problem with existing alpha weapons - shotgun and nova knife are highly effective. You should be able to get the 2nd shot off before taking fire, and even then if you're skillful (and partly lucky) you can finish off a heavy. And before anyone jumps on the cloak bandwagon, none of what I am describing requires it. Let's not forget the use of REs too. As for WP - I think it's fine as is. I probably make on average 1000 WP per game. Sometimes it's only 500, other times it's closer to 2000. I know others make far more, but I influence the game too. More so skirmish, but Dom has it's moments. Please stop thinking scouts can't do combat without HP. They can, they do it effectively, and it brings another dimension to a game. I agree with your thinking as it relates to Pubs. But PC (and to a lesser degree, competitive Pubs) are quite different. These conceptual paperthins need to be sufficiently viable and valuable for a Field Commander to need them.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 209	Posted - 2014.11.14 13:31:00 - [5] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: How about this restore the cloak to what it was and replace the timer with a 90-95% damage debuff and give the cloak 100% tacnet ping. This way you don't get to linger you either strike or you hide not both because if you enter someones tac range or if you strike to early you completely expose yourself. If they want use the cloak and live they need range amps and damps and would be better off striking uncloaked if there is more than one target. This really doesn't fix the problem though scouts really need to be side arm only, but I will play along for ***** and giggles. I see no reason why we shouldn't discuss nerf ideas collectively ... * Enforce scout squishiness * Restrict scout weapons * Remove scout 2nd EQ * Reduce scout slot count * Nerf cloak (obviously) * Increase scout scan profile * Limit scout combat functions * Limit scout non-combat functions If we made it our practice to enumerate and consolidate ideas in these discussions, we'd be better able to prioritize new nerf ideas as made available in GD. How else will we know which ideas (and in what order) to present to Rattati to help him balance the game.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 210	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:34:00 - [6] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Your OP states: Goal: to make scouts prefer EWAR over health An excellent point. Another way to look at the Scout HP Problem might be from the standpoint of comparative utility. In a game where HP Modules afford greater benefit than other modules, why would we expect a class to prefer anything else?