DUST Search - Scouts and EWAR. Brainstorming.

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. Perhaps even more, since the paper-thins would operate at far higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP and having to hug enemy positions (rather than hide behind heavies).

In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options to choose from ...

Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets.
Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP.
Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards.

Dead in .01 seconds or dead in 0.5s makes no difference to me. I get seen, I'm dead, or at the very least, must withdraw. At least, that is how I approach battles. That's how it was pre-1.8, and that was a viable if not ultra-hard-mode playstyle. I believe it still can be done today.

The whole point of scouts having ewar is so they can be stealthy, and have better situational awareness. That is what they should use instead of HP. I don't agree with you saying they're too squishy for combat. It's just a different style of play, and it can be *incredibly* fun to run. You can usually best another merc if they're solo, and you can have great fun with squads and confuse the hell out of them - doesn't require a kill, though it's usually possible.

Also I'm not really seeing a problem with existing alpha weapons - shotgun and nova knife are highly effective. You should be able to get the 2nd shot off before taking fire, and even then if you're skillful (and partly lucky) you can finish off a heavy. And before anyone jumps on the cloak bandwagon, none of what I am describing requires it. Let's not forget the use of REs too.

As for WP - I think it's fine as is. I probably make on average 1000 WP per game. Sometimes it's only 500, other times it's closer to 2000. I know others make far more, but I influence the game too. More so skirmish, but Dom has it's moments.

Please stop thinking scouts can't do combat without HP. They can, they do it effectively, and it brings another dimension to a game.

I agree with your thinking as it relates to Pubs. But PC (and to a lesser degree, competitive Pubs) are quite different. These conceptual paperthins need to be sufficiently viable and valuable for a Field Commander to need them.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 979	Posted - 2014.11.13 19:45:00 - [1] - Quote Already touted elsewhere, possibly by Rattati Adding HP adds to signal strength. Inversely, removing HP removes. Somewhere in there you can define what the median should be for a scout for both dB and HP, and go from there. Don't forget also that EWAR doesn't only cover dampening (dB). Range and detection are also part of that relationship. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 981	Posted - 2014.11.13 20:18:00 - [2] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: All good points. Keep the ball rolling, what can we do then? I was wondering if EWAR changes would be easier to work with if scanning ties went to the dampened instead of the scanner. I think the numbers would be easier to play with, and that we could both enable scouts to beat scans with sacrifice while making room for medium frames in the EWAR realm. Hey man how you doing? Long time. You got me questioning for the first time ever, what is the reasoning for medium frames needing changes to EWAR? Is it so they can pick up scouts? Coz it can't be that an assault class should be trying to sneak around the battlefield can it? Or...because sandbox? Just needs a bit of balancing? EWAR is obvious for non-assault roles (e.g. scouts). But not really other frames? Curious.... You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 984	Posted - 2014.11.13 21:03:00 - [3] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: All good points. Keep the ball rolling, what can we do then? I was wondering if EWAR changes would be easier to work with if scanning ties went to the dampened instead of the scanner. I think the numbers would be easier to play with, and that we could both enable scouts to beat scans with sacrifice while making room for medium frames in the EWAR realm. Hey man how you doing? Long time. You got me questioning for the first time ever, what is the reasoning for medium frames needing changes to EWAR? Is it so they can pick up scouts? Coz it can't be that an assault class should be trying to sneak around the battlefield can it? Or...because sandbox? Just needs a bit of balancing? EWAR is obvious for non-assault roles (e.g. scouts). But not really other frames? Curious.... I think Ghost put it best. Ghost Kaisar wrote: Think of it like this: Damped Med Frames hunt undamped med frames. Precision Med Frames hunt damped med frames Precision and Damped Med frames hunt undamped scouts Precision scouts hunt damped med frames so on and so forth. Get the picture? Yah sure but when would an assault ever hunt? I think that's my problem there. But hey along with el OPERATOR's suggestion, good sandbox, why not, as long as I can still be stealthy scout with the correct fitting You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 987	Posted - 2014.11.14 09:18:00 - [4] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. Perhaps even more, since the paper-thins would operate at far higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP and having to hug enemy positions (rather than hide behind heavies). In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options to choose from ... Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets. Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP. Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards. Dead in .01 seconds or dead in 0.5s makes no difference to me. I get seen, I'm dead, or at the very least, must withdraw. At least, that is how I approach battles. That's how it was pre-1.8, and that was a viable if not ultra-hard-mode playstyle. I believe it still can be done today. The whole point of scouts having ewar is so they can be stealthy, and have better situational awareness. That is what they should use instead of HP. I don't agree with you saying they're too squishy for combat. It's just a different style of play, and it can be incredibly fun to run. You can usually best another merc if they're solo, and you can have great fun with squads and confuse the hell out of them - doesn't require a kill, though it's usually possible. Also I'm not really seeing a problem with existing alpha weapons - shotgun and nova knife are highly effective. You should be able to get the 2nd shot off before taking fire, and even then if you're skillful (and partly lucky) you can finish off a heavy. And before anyone jumps on the cloak bandwagon, none of what I am describing requires it. Let's not forget the use of REs too. As for WP - I think it's fine as is. I probably make on average 1000 WP per game. Sometimes it's only 500, other times it's closer to 2000. I know others make far more, but I influence the game too. More so skirmish, but Dom has it's moments. Please stop thinking scouts can't do combat without HP. They can, they do it effectively, and it brings another dimension to a game. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 987	Posted - 2014.11.14 13:22:00 - [5] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Straight EWAR fits are too squishy to do much else apart from sneak and peak. Since the proposed paper-thin wouldn't be able to participate in combat, they wouldn't be much fun to run. They'd need to generate WP for passive scans on par with the WP generated by Logis for rep-slaving and hive tossing. Perhaps even more, since the paper-thins would operate at far higher risk, having a third the Logi's HP and having to hug enemy positions (rather than hide behind heavies). In order to make the proposed paper-thin fun, we'd definitely have to give them opportunity to assassinate targets of opportunity. As everyone else is running 1000+ HP, this would mean massive role or racial bonuses to alpha weapons. At the end of the day, hopefully the new paper-thin would have a few loadout options to choose from ... Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets. Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP. Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards. Dead in .01 seconds or dead in 0.5s makes no difference to me. I get seen, I'm dead, or at the very least, must withdraw. At least, that is how I approach battles. That's how it was pre-1.8, and that was a viable if not ultra-hard-mode playstyle. I believe it still can be done today. The whole point of scouts having ewar is so they can be stealthy, and have better situational awareness. That is what they should use instead of HP. I don't agree with you saying they're too squishy for combat. It's just a different style of play, and it can be incredibly fun to run. You can usually best another merc if they're solo, and you can have great fun with squads and confuse the hell out of them - doesn't require a kill, though it's usually possible. Also I'm not really seeing a problem with existing alpha weapons - shotgun and nova knife are highly effective. You should be able to get the 2nd shot off before taking fire, and even then if you're skillful (and partly lucky) you can finish off a heavy. And before anyone jumps on the cloak bandwagon, none of what I am describing requires it. Let's not forget the use of REs too. As for WP - I think it's fine as is. I probably make on average 1000 WP per game. Sometimes it's only 500, other times it's closer to 2000. I know others make far more, but I influence the game too. More so skirmish, but Dom has it's moments. Please stop thinking scouts can't do combat without HP. They can, they do it effectively, and it brings another dimension to a game. I agree with your thinking as it relates to Pubs. But PC (and to a lesser degree, competitive Pubs) are quite different. These conceptual paperthins need to be sufficiently viable and valuable for a Field Commander to need them. I don't play PC so I may be missing important experience, but I don't see how the fits you mentioned are much different to what we have now, or useful in more competitive battles. Genuinely interested in being enlightened! :) Vitantur Nothus wrote: 1. Glass-Cannon - Bonuses to SGs and NKs which insta-gib even the tankiest of targets. 2. Scout Sniper - Thales-like bonus to zoom and shared LoS target acquisition + WP. 3. Sneak and Peak - Low attack capability, low HP, high risk. Massive WP rewards. 1. We have this now. NKs OHK most suits, shotgun isn't that far behind and benefits from more range. Isn't it just harder to get in close enough to use these with more organised teams? 2. Never sniped so not sure I'm qualified to comment, but I don't see the point of shared LoS. Isn't that what scanners and comms are for? If you're not able to take a target out and can only perform overwatch, why not just be a scanning logi instead? WP - why? Isn't the main aim to win? I'm assuming you want extra WP to entice mercs into performing the role, but don't you wear what the FC requires you to? 3. Again, why boost WP? For orbitals? Can't think of another reason for WP in a battle where the whole point is to win. What reason would an FC get this "sneak and peak" role into their team? Why not just use a scanner logi and good old eyesight. You've a team of 16 right? Maybe I'm seeing it too black and white, but EWAR is binary after all. Way I look at it, a stealthy scout is a useful scout, for killing, hacking, getting around and generally causing havoc. They can do that in pubs now. If they can't do it in PC due to the higher organisation of a balanced competitive team, what to do? If you're seen, you need more HP and a longer range gun. I'm all for making scouts PC-competitive outside of light assaults, but not seeing how your proposals help with that. You said these "need to be sufficiently viable and valuable for a Field Commander to need them". Would it be useful to start with what it is an FC needs, then tick off what is already available with existing suits? You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 987	Posted - 2014.11.14 13:27:00 - [6] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: This really doesn't fix the problem though [...] Which problem? You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 988	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:09:00 - [7] - Quote Your OP states: Goal: to make scouts prefer EWAR over health I already do. But assault light is the problem. Reduce scout EWAR effectiveness when they add HP - keep the sandbox. Most of your pointers there I can't even begin to understand how they would help this. Some of them break the sandbox. I can guarantee you if some of those things happen, I won't be playing scout. I can't really contribute more to this thread - seems you're trying to fix things outside of the OP now, without defining the problem(s). I really think increasing profile et al when adding plates and / or shields is the way to go next. Then you must wait and see what happens. Scout must be able to be stealthy, and must be able to wield light weapons and side-arms. IMO of course. You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz