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Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2130
   |
Posted - 2014.11.12 17:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am rather surprised you're broke, Saxon, but perhaps running something other than proto suits and proto weapons is in your future.
Makes it a bit harder to have 30+, 40+ or 50+ kill games, but you'll certainly make more ISK.
Personally, I have two cheap fits I run when I'm running a bit low on funds -- a dual ScP advanced cal scout, and a BPO Dren Heavy w/advanced HMG. Both are very isk-efficient (around 30k), still let me get plenty of kills, and are loads of fun to play. |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2142
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 19:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I am rather surprised you're broke, Saxon, but perhaps running something other than proto suits and proto weapons is in your future.
Makes it a bit harder to have 30+, 40+ or 50+ kill games, but you'll certainly make more ISK.
Personally, I have two cheap fits I run when I'm running a bit low on funds -- a dual ScP advanced cal scout, and a BPO Dren Heavy w/advanced HMG. Both are very isk-efficient (around 30k), still let me get plenty of kills, and are loads of fun to play. I have a fully blueprint logi suit, I can run 3 of 4 matches in it and be fine. Problem is, then if I pull out the proto, or even some adv scout/commando, all that isk is gone. The proto can wipe out 4 or 5 matches worth of isk in 3 deaths. Logis, in general, get shafted. We're slow, low ehp, and our role bonuses aren't that great (imo). I understand my role (Ive been playing it for 2+ years) but come on, 286K for a proto logi? And I might get 300K in a match? One loss and I'm even, 2 and I'm deep in the red. I might as well fly an DS, costs less and I have better survivability. If I get someone in the door, I can kill better too.
I agree, logis are the toughest of the roles to make money on at proto level due to the increases costs. TBH, the only time I run them now is in PC or if our squad is really hurting for one.
Proto logis are also, however, WP machines -- and this is also true in the case of standard and advanced versions.
I think the fix is to increase payouts for people towards the top end of the board, and stop rewarding as much ISK for people at the bottom.
This would also, hopefully, reward people actually trying in the game rather than just redline sniping (and other low risk activities) to avoid ISK losses. |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2142
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 20:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think he is trolling.
First off, it's not his style. Second, even with a proto KDR of 6, when you're getting 20 or 30 or more kills per match, your losses overcome your winnings.
It's really not a stretch.... |
Leadfoot10
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2147
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 21:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:RayRay James wrote:Leadfoot10 wrote:I am rather surprised you're broke, Saxon, but perhaps running something other than proto suits and proto weapons is in your future.
Makes it a bit harder to have 30+, 40+ or 50+ kill games, but you'll certainly make more ISK.
Personally, I have two cheap fits I run when I'm running a bit low on funds -- a dual ScP advanced cal scout, and a BPO Dren Heavy w/advanced HMG. Both are very isk-efficient (around 30k), still let me get plenty of kills, and are loads of fun to play. I have a fully blueprint logi suit, I can run 3 of 4 matches in it and be fine. Problem is, then if I pull out the proto, or even some adv scout/commando, all that isk is gone. The proto can wipe out 4 or 5 matches worth of isk in 3 deaths. Logis, in general, get shafted. We're slow, low ehp, and our role bonuses aren't that great (imo). I understand my role (Ive been playing it for 2+ years) but come on, 286K for a proto logi? And I might get 300K in a match? One loss and I'm even, 2 and I'm deep in the red. I might as well fly an DS, costs less and I have better survivability. If I get someone in the door, I can kill better too. I agree, logis are the toughest of the roles to make money on at proto level due to the increases costs. TBH, the only time I run them now is in PC or if our squad is really hurting for one. Proto logis are also, however, WP machines -- and this is also true in the case of standard and advanced versions. I think the fix is to increase payouts for people towards the top end of the board, and stop rewarding as much ISK for people at the bottom. This would also, hopefully, reward people actually trying in the game rather than just redline sniping (and other low risk activities) to avoid ISK losses. We did take a bit of a nerf to WP with the needle changes. If I'm running solo, those people that I could successfully pick up before now don't know I'm actually not a scrub and won't hit the revive button. I understand (somewhat) the need for the change, but still. As for being a WP Machine, If that translated into a higher isk payout, I'd be all for it. However, in most cases now, I can get a higher return on investment as a adv scout set for hacking and coming in third than I can as a proto logi coming in first. Personally, I don't think that's right.
That's essentially what I'm saying -- that we increase payouts with higher WP players getting more of a share.
While I'm not sure I disagree about it being fair, I will point out that the weakness in ISK effectiveness is balanced with an increase in SP which makes the weekly grind take far less time -- so it's not without benefit.
The underlying point -- we need to incentivize people trying rather than ISK farming. We should REWARD behaviors that lead towards exciting gameplay. Otherwise we bolster the reasons to redline snipe, AFK farm, or just not really try to win.
Because, TBH, I think someone like Saxon who goes proto and pulls a 50-4 round should actually make ISK and the redline sniper who went 2:1 with 100wp should break even.
SP is another story, but ISK payouts as they stand today, IMO, reinforce bad in-game behavior.
That said, this clone brings up a superb point and we need to be wary of overly reducing consequences and as a result breaking the game:
Mahal Daj wrote:The Risk/Reward paradigm is very similar to Eve and designed to encourage a similar investment plan.
Without getting into too much granularity, consider: rock (tank) - paper (ewar) - scissors (firepower).
Basic: Pick 1 advantage - 10k+/suits
Advanced: Pick 2 advantages - 40k+/suits
Prototype: Pick 3 advantages - 120k+/suits
You pay to carry the variety, even if you don't get to use it. By increasing the payout you affect 2 key gameplay issues: people should protect the suits they wear (benefits strategy and meaningful play) and increase the chance of the runaway-victor. Both hurt the game in the long term.
I run a basic scout almost exclusively, and every time I assassinate a squad leader wearing prototype gear... I know that I have tipped the balance of power substantially, and probably cost that player the profit of their entire match. That meaningful interaction is the reason that thoughtful people play, and invest, in this game.
I too want to run more prototype, but proto-saturation removes consequences from the ecosystem; and that is worthy of heavy consideration before any decisions are made.
-daj |
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