DUST Search - [IDEA] Scout Balance

IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

Let's not forget the purpose of the scout (buried under a mountain of hate right now) is to recon and share passives with their squad. Lowering their PG and CPU restricts their ability to go beyond that role without removing it outright. And bonuses to fitting optimization

complains about the suggestion that scouts aren't combat oriented

Your post looked good but you never got to the part where you explained how to fix it. You can't just say "YOU'RE WRONG" and then leave without constructive criticism. I understand Scouts were bad before, I don't want them to go back to that. Our primary goal should be to eliminate the "light assault". It actually doesn't even matter what each others' opinions on the role is, the whole point of the sandbox is that you can define your own role. The issue for now, though, is that the scout does something better in every aspect compared to assault.

I never intended to - I just wanted to correct you and inform others that scouts have never been a non-combat role. There's been plenty of suggestions for fixes since 1.8 came out, many from far better analysts than me.

The light assault being better than an assault has been the topic of "how to fix" for months in the Scout Registry thread. It's not new, and I am in total agreement with you on fixing that ****. Without a command respec, measuring the effect of hotfixes A, B, C and D as well as 1.9 and numerous other stealth and quick fixes is pretty tough - how long does it take for those guys that went from AR-514 to Scout-514 to go back to AR-514, if that is indeed what they want to do?

Maybe before more fixes we should ask CCP if they can offer another command respec just to see how many of us ditch scout for something else. Not gonna happen methinks.

[edit] oh and hey, no hostility inferred, sorry if i came off as brash, what you said made my eyes bleed ;-)


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Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 153	Posted - 2014.11.11 05:05:00 - [1] - Quote - Lower CPU of scout suits across the board. (and maybe PG?) - No change in slot layouts. - Add Optimization Bonuses per scout level to fit their EWAR modules. Example, 5% less CPU on Precision Enhancers per level of Amarr Scout. OR - a blanket bonus of 5% less CPU for Precision Enhancers, Profile Dampeners and Range Amplifiers to all scouts per level. This can literally be combined with the cloaking optimization skill ALREADY granted to all scouts. - Then change their EWAR bonuses to be Module Efficacy instead of base stat enhancement. Example, 5% Bonus to Precision Enahncers Effiicacy per level of Amarr Scout. - And finally, normalize EWAR across the board so that scouts are only SLIGHTLY better than medium frames at ewar in all respects. Also make medium frames only SLIGHTLY better than heavy frames at ewar in all respects. REASONING: By restricting their fitting resources (lowering CPU) we lower the combat abiliites of the scout without taking away from the sandbox. All slots remain, all playstyles can still be achieved if one is so inclined. The fitting resources are returned to the scout if it aligns itself more closely to the role of ewar modules. Ewar itself becomes less of a monopoly if Mediums and Heavies can overlap slightly on the Scout in terms of ewar. These two factors greatly reduce the COMBAT ABILITY of the scout WITHOUT taking away creative playstyle possibilities and without hurting intended playstyles. Lowering the combat ability of the scout is at the heart of the issue right now, not the cloak.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 154	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:22:00 - [2] - Quote Please try to see the big picture here. The argument that EWAR is what makes the scout OP is false. EWAR is OP and the scout is the only one who can wield it. This is why I suggest normalization of ewar across different frames. If everyone can wield ewar then this becomes a non-issue. More importantly, the true problem with scouts is their COMBAT ABILITY. You cannot remove their slots, this kills the sandbox nature of the scout and the game. If someone wants to stack myofibrils on a scout with shield regulators that is their business. We cannot restrict any frame this way without ruining the sandbox. Let's not forget the purpose of the scout (buried under a mountain of hate right now) is to recon and share passives with their squad. Lowering their PG and CPU restricts their ability to go beyond that role without removing it outright. And bonuses to fitting optimization of ewar reward scouts who align to the intended role. It should be normal that a scout cannot fit too many HP modules without breaking CPU/PG. The same way an assault does after trying to force fit a cloak for the lulz. It's not impossible, you CAN do it, but you won't have much else. Goal #1: Normalize Ewar to be wielded effectively by all frames. Goal #2: Reduce combat ability of the scout. Goal #3: Don't hurt the sandbox. Ideas to reach these goals differently are welcome.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 154	Posted - 2014.11.11 16:54:00 - [3] - Quote Vesperz wrote: I'd rather keep my hacking and knife bonus thank you. [...] No one is taking that away from you (or me for that matter). Read carefully.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 154	Posted - 2014.11.11 18:17:00 - [4] - Quote I would argue that fitting a codebreaker on a min scout is not functional but rather extreme. Just like stacking HP mods to insane amounts, this is something that SHOULD be hard to fit. Don't forget it has a codebreaker "built-in". I run a specific fit with codebreaker on my character (i ONLY run min scout), and I do not bring a codebreaker on any other suit but that specific one which is built around the use of a codebreaker. Quote: - Add Optimization Bonuses per scout level to fit their EWAR modules. Example, 5% less CPU on Precision Enhancers per level of Amarr Scout. If we take this option, the min scout can be get back lost cpu with a second nova knife optimization. OR Quote: - a blanket bonus of 5% less CPU for Precision Enhancers, Profile Dampeners and Range Amplifiers to all scouts per level. This can literally be combined with the cloaking optimization skill ALREADY granted to all scouts. In this option a Min scout can get it's CPU back like the other scouts, fitting enhancers and dampeners. I like option 2 a bit more.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 160	Posted - 2014.11.12 18:13:00 - [5] - Quote Hoping to get a couple more replies on this
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 168	Posted - 2014.11.13 19:47:00 - [6] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Lower cpu and pg, no bonus additions. Without giving incentive to run ewar, and reducing incentive to stack HP and firepower, scouts will continue to run "light assaults".
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 168	Posted - 2014.11.13 20:11:00 - [7] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Let's not forget the purpose of the scout (buried under a mountain of hate right now) is to recon and share passives with their squad. Lowering their PG and CPU restricts their ability to go beyond that role without removing it outright. And bonuses to fitting optimization Dude no. This has never been (at least as long as I've played which is since open beta) the role of the scout, regardless of how anyone would seek to define that word. Do you think anyone is gonna run scout if that's all it can do? I appreciate you and others trying to come up with ideas to resolve the issue, but don't mis-inform and attempt to put your own definition on what a role should be able to do whilst you're at it. It's really not that long since scout was the under-performing role across the board in every conceivable way, and that state of affairs lasted for a ** *** long time. You only need to go back to 1.6 I believe. 1.8 **** scouts up in totally the opposite direction and made them totally OP. We've not been able to recover from that because of fanfest and no more development. We're gradually getting there now (I think?) but exacerbating the issue is the fact that there was a dropsuit command respec for 1.8 and the FotM was the scout. Everyone still likely has one or two proto scout suits. If's a sorry state of affairs, but please don't fill the new player's heads with ideas of what a scout never was. Ta :) Your post looked good but you never got to the part where you explained how to fix it. You can't just say "YOU'RE WRONG" and then leave without constructive criticism. I understand Scouts were bad before, I don't want them to go back to that. Our primary goal should be to eliminate the "light assault". It actually doesn't even matter what each others' opinions on the role is, the whole point of the sandbox is that you can define your own role. The issue for now, though, is that the scout does something better in every aspect compared to assault.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 168	Posted - 2014.11.13 20:14:00 - [8] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: the min scout can be get back lost cpu by reducing the CPU cost of Nova Knives per level of Minmatar Scout. OR a Min scout can get it's CPU back like the other scouts, fitting enhancers and dampeners. Hope you can excuse the paraphrasing. You said you run Min scout. Proto? I only run advanced min scout when I do. CPU is not the issue, PG is. I don't know if proto is different, but my min scout is not wanting more CPU, only PG No problem, to answer your question, I usually only run Basic Min Scout Enhanced Shield Extender Complex Precision Enhancer Complex Dampener Complex KinCats ZN Nova Knives Basic Flaylock Basic Flux Advanced Cloak I have proto fits that I use that are highly specialized, like my codebreaker fit which I use at the start of every dom/skirm, with 2xKinCats and Codebreaker, or if I have to deal with very high level scouts I have another proto with 2x Dampeners and Kin Cats. Ultimately, those fits are very very precise and I don't run them to stomp but to fill a specific role. EDIT: I do really appreciate your input on the matter, please don't interpret anything I said as hostility.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 171	Posted - 2014.11.13 20:32:00 - [9] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Let's not forget the purpose of the scout (buried under a mountain of hate right now) is to recon and share passives with their squad. Lowering their PG and CPU restricts their ability to go beyond that role without removing it outright. And bonuses to fitting optimization complains about the suggestion that scouts aren't combat oriented Your post looked good but you never got to the part where you explained how to fix it. You can't just say "YOU'RE WRONG" and then leave without constructive criticism. I understand Scouts were bad before, I don't want them to go back to that. Our primary goal should be to eliminate the "light assault". It actually doesn't even matter what each others' opinions on the role is, the whole point of the sandbox is that you can define your own role. The issue for now, though, is that the scout does something better in every aspect compared to assault. I never intended to - I just wanted to correct you and inform others that scouts have never been a non-combat role. There's been plenty of suggestions for fixes since 1.8 came out, many from far better analysts than me. The light assault being better than an assault has been the topic of "how to fix" for months in the Scout Registry thread. It's not new, and I am in total agreement with you on fixing that ****. Without a command respec, measuring the effect of hotfixes A, B, C and D as well as 1.9 and numerous other stealth and quick fixes is pretty tough - how long does it take for those guys that went from AR-514 to Scout-514 to go back to AR-514, if that is indeed what they want to do? Maybe before more fixes we should ask CCP if they can offer another command respec just to see how many of us ditch scout for something else. Not gonna happen methinks. [edit] oh and hey, no hostility inferred, sorry if i came off as brash, what you said made my eyes bleed ;-) I realize this is just my perception, but I am certain that there are even MORE scouts now since 1.9 than before. The purchasable respec has seen take even more assaults away and added more scouts to the pile. To be clear all things in Dust are for combat. I am not saying my view of the scout is a non-combat role. However I do believe that a scout's main role is to support his squad. Whether that is hacking wayward, undefended objectives, relaying enemy positions or taking out an enemy logi before an attack. Like I said though, my opinion on the matter doesn't mean ANYTHING because sandbox.