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Edge-case Issue with 750k Cap

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Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7048	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:10:00 - [1] - Quote Get ready, it's gonna be a long bumpy ride filled with MATH Last week I asked everyone how many skills they had at level 5 and slipped in how much SP I had to subconsciously encourage others to show how much SP they have as well. Some of you are rocking an admirable 70+ MILLION SP, which is an astonishing feat if I do say so myself (I'm rocking 50 million, after all). We got the 750,000 weekly cap and as excited as I am about that... there may be a potential problem with it. With this new cap, assuming a player decided to rock out his boosters, we can take a look at these numbers: Quote: One week stacked 50% boosters: x3 50% boosters + Weekly Active CAP = 1,875,000 x3 50% boosters + Weekly Passive SP = 420,000 Weeks worth of Daily Login Bonus = 42,000 Grand Total: 2,337,000 SP/week One week stacked 100% boosters: x3 100% boosters + Weekly Active CAP = 3,000,000 x3 100% boosters + Weekly Passive SP = 672,000 Weeks worth of Daily Login Bonus = 42,000 Grand Total: 3,714,000 SP/week Now, bear in mind, this doesn't include the Instant SP Boost that you're allowed after every match. You might be thinking, "So what? What does this matter and why is it a problem? THAT MUCH SP IS -AWESOME-!" And it is! But let's consider our edge-case veterans who -do- have 70,000,000 SP. Here's some more numbers: Quote: All specialist suits 5: ---> 53,098,800 All Dropsuit Upgrades 5: ---> 22,075,320 All Infantry Weapons 5: --->119,393,280 ---> All infantry weapons 5 (no specialization skills like Rapid Reload/Sharpshooter): 17,100,600 Assuming that our veteran player doesn't go into the specialization skills for his weapons, and he has 70 million SP... He now has 22,247,720 SP left until he has literally unlocked and proto'd out every single infantry item in the game. No more suits, no more guns, no more modules/equipment; he's hit the end of the line as far as content goes. How fast can he make 22.25 million SP? Quote: Well, assuming that he's got a lot of liquid income to throw out and has 100% boosters... He'll have unlocked everything there is for infantry on December 18th, 2014. How about something more realistic, like a 70 million SP veteran with 50% stacked boosters...? Try January 8th, 2015. Just nine weeks from today. But what if that same veteran player decided to max out everything in the weapons trees, essentially getting all Infantry skills to level 5? He'd hit that around June 25th, 2015. What about a new player who just started today, started buying 50% boosters, and wants to unlock all infantry skills (no spec skills)? With 0 SP -today- he'd reach that goal around August 10th, 2015. Now, obviously not everyone has a stockpile of Omega boosters and not everyone is going to be shelling out the $30 a month to be able to run stacked boosters through and through but we do have those types of players and they have to be taken into consideration. For longevity purposes, I'm not entirely sure that this game can survive for more than a year with this sort of SP cap without players feeling like they can no longer progress. This doesn't take into account vehicles and turrets but even if you max out everything (including spec skills for turrets) there is for vehicles, that's an additional 62,424,920 SP (6 months). Of course this is all just hypotheticals, I don't think Dust 514 has enough content to last more than another year unless we re-consider the 750k SP weekly cap, temporary as it may be... although the post level-5 content discussion now looks a hell of a lot more pertinent. Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 100	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:35:00 - [2] - Quote 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1493	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:47:00 - [3] - Quote +1, a very good post and spot on. This char has 73,3 M SP. (before this week) My alts have over 55 M SP. So far I've maxed out virtually everything (barring one one-day unannounced cap reset thursday, boo, and an nova knife event.) on all chars. I already made a post about True no-lifers who play some 100+, maybe 400 extra games per week. They have approx 10 M on top of all the other maxed out stats, so about 80-84M SP (before this week). Edge cases? Theoretical? Not really. I vow to max out everything - still during this crazy November. Trip boosters and all. Grindy times ahead... People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7056	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:48:00 - [4] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK I -SEVERELY- doubt that racial vehicles/MAVs/Lasers/Artillery will be added. It's already been stated several times that it's not likely to happen so... Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1493	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:56:00 - [5] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: . . LIST OF NEW CONTENT AND TOYS. . . Confirming Aeon's point. There has been absolutely no sign that any of the abovementioned, or other, content additions would be worked on. The first patch in 9 months - longest time ever - focused mostly on (necessary) tweaks. I wouldn't use those as an argument. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Thumb Green Raymond James Corp 1668	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:10:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Of course this is all just hypotheticals, I don't think Dust 514 has enough content to last more than another year unless we re-consider the 750k SP weekly cap, temporary as it may be... although the post level-5 content discussion now looks a hell of a lot more pertinent. DUST isn't meant to last anymore and every day that passes could be the last that it is on the server; people tend to forget about that. I don't play DUST for the content, it's a nice bonus sure but I play to bs with the people I know on here and to win matches. I think most people that play this are along those lines as well; I mean hell, we've been playing this game with it's bare bones content for almost 2 years (and more for some) and we keep playing it even after the BS of fanfest We don't kick ass, we kick dick and we kick it hard. Join us in our Pumpkin Crushing
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui VEHICLEBUSTERS Demolitions and Logistics Corp . 1366	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:19:00 - [7] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK Lets only hope ( I don't need a pilot suit ) and I like your energy bro , you have hope and that sound nice but I just don't know about all of that ... I'm sure legion will see all that your asking for . Thank you Rattati , the DEV crew and the CPM for getting the job of 1.9 done .
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 430	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:22:00 - [8] - Quote I thought Rattati already said that the 750k cap is only for this month, and that after the 4th or 5th of Dec the numbers will be reworked so that 750k is the MAX possible cap, after all boosters are applied? This multi-million SP thing is an error, but being allowed for the month so that Omega purchasers who've stacked already can get what they paid for? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7060	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:31:00 - [9] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I thought Rattati already said that the 750k cap is only for this month, and that after the 4th or 5th of Dec the numbers will be reworked so that 750k is the MAX possible cap, after all boosters are applied? This multi-million SP thing is an error, but being allowed for the month so that Omega purchasers who've stacked already can get what they paid for? Nah brosef, from the way it was worded, the 750k SP Cap could very likely become a thing after the 30 Day "trial" period. I made this thread to provide reasoning as to why I think it's a terrible idea, unless something changes and we get new content (unlikely) or Project Legion drops very soon (terrible idea). CCP Rattati wrote: Therefore, I propose that to keep faith to those that thought the intent was 750k multiplied by stacked boosters, to immediately raise it to 750k during downtime tomorrow. The potential SP gain will be enormous, but we can monitor the situation for a single month, just how fast players are capping and gaining SP and whether it is a real problem. Those that bought and stacked 3 boosters today, will not lose anything and be able to do what was communicated, even though that was absolutely not our intent. If you have already capped out today, please take a break and start again after DT tomorrow. However, we then reserve our right to reduce the Skill Cap after 30 days if deemed necessary, with a weeks notice or so, so players will understand fully how the Skill Cap will affect their purchasing decisions. CCP Rattati Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
NextDark Knight Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 563	Posted - 2014.11.06 19:37:00 - [10] - Quote It was a mistake. but remember this isn't accelerated SP so it will be hard to grind it out. Just props to CCP for not screwing over the paying customer.. I think this is the FIRST TIME I CAN REMEMBER that they went back and fixed a BAIT AND SWITCH they did for Aurum purchases. THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR DUST. Most of us vets have very bitter fealing about some of the older Bait and Switch Aurum deals that when on in the game. Seeing that they aren't going down this route anymore give me great expectation for whats coming out on console in the near future. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. No matter how hard CCP tries Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox.

Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2394	Posted - 2014.11.06 20:18:00 - [11] - Quote Failure to communicate. Rattati thought Boosters only accelerated SP rather than just giving more above and beyond the cap. He brought up Triple Boosters as he thought it would allow people to cap REALLY fast. To make up for that, he decided to increase the cap to 750. Here is what he thought versus what the CPM and all of us thought: Rattati: "Not everyone will hit 750k a week. The veteran can just play as much as they want and not worry about it too much. A new player can put in boosters to be sure to ALWAYS cap every week to catch up to proto players in just a few weeks. And you could just grind it out. Fair for everyone." CPM/Us: "This is a windfall of SP. I guess Rattati really wants people to get into the game faster. The Veteran will probably not care about Boosters and the new player can power through Boosters if they want to immediately get competitive. Triple Boosters mean that a new player could get a full Prototype Role in a month of capping out. Once everyone hits about 10 million in a role, SP doesn't matter as much because you grow Fat rather than Tall." These two thoughts obviously don't work out together. It clearly cannot stay because even "we added a whole lot more skills!" will still continue this line of "FEED ME AURUM FOR BOOSTERS!" My guess is that it will move towards what Rattati originally thought: Active Boosters will provide faster SP but not above the cap and the cap will stay at 750k. Unless I wanted something really nice, I would not grind out that 750k past the point I was enjoying the game as I am rocking 40 million SP and have everything I want (Hell, I have 5 million floating!). New players can grind or boost to ensure 750k a week. 750k a week means that in about a month they have advanced in a single role. 504k in 30 days Passive (more if boosted) and 3 million for capping 4 times. 3.5 million is pretty much full Advanced in a role. So in a month a new player is very competitive, two months they are extremely dangerous, and in three they ARE the Protostomper. Again, in one role. That being said: I would have been absolutely furious if they had not said "this will stay for at least 30 days but we reserve the right to change it." I am one of those greedy bastards that looked at it and immediately dropped 3 boosters into for that 2 million a week. By them not changing how it worked, at least for 30 days, means that CCP didn't just go "Sorry for the miscommunication. Thanks for the money!" which I will give credit for. Thanks for putting up these numbers. It is very interesting to see. I don't want these numbers to stick around. Getting millions in a week is going to be cute for this week, maybe next. By the end of the month when I am Prototype in 5 more roles than I was before (Incoming all Caldari Suits to Proto!), after that I would just be done. Throwing out new Skills would just LITERALLY be SP Sinks to stop the tide of ~11 million a month. We are toddlers with candy and CCP needs to be the responsible parent and be sure that we don't gorge ourselves to death. "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10143	Posted - 2014.11.06 21:02:00 - [12] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK I -SEVERELY- doubt that racial vehicles/MAVs/Lasers/Artillery will be added. It's already been stated several times that it's not likely to happen so... They said the same thing about updates for Dust but look what happened. 1.9 came along. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7065	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:21:00 - [13] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK I -SEVERELY- doubt that racial vehicles/MAVs/Lasers/Artillery will be added. It's already been stated several times that it's not likely to happen so... They said the same thing about updates for Dust but look what happened. 1.9 came along. Right, but none of that is active development in the same sense. The maps/sockets were trickle down from Project Legion; probably was just optimized for the PS3 because - well, it existed at the time and we've been hearing about the Caldari Production Facility since this time last year. The market agent as well seems, to me, to be a trickle down from Legion. Mostly because there was mention that there was supposed to be 10-15, using character assets from Eve Online, but they weren't compatible. Now, this is just my theory, but I can't understand why they'd have give us optimized trickle down maps from Legion and then on the other hand sit down and model out the market agent -solely- for the benefit of Dust 514. The rest was just programming and UI for things we've been desperately needing (an NPC vendor, for instance). Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
Juno Tristan Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 148	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:32:00 - [14] - Quote You forgot to include how much cash they would have spent to achieve these goals. If the game had been like this at launch I would agree, might have even said it was P2W, but that 0 sp newbro is only catching up to overcome the advantages the vets have in this game. Since the change helps to eliminate one of the biggest barriers to entry for new players and at the same time pumps more cash to fund development, I support it.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7065	Posted - 2014.11.07 02:36:00 - [15] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: You forgot to include how much cash they would have spent to achieve these goals. If the game had been like this at launch I would agree, might have even said it was P2W, but that 0 sp newbro is only catching up to overcome the advantages the vets have in this game. Since the change helps to eliminate one of the biggest barriers to entry for new players and at the same time pumps more cash to fund development, I support it. Which is cool, I fully expect that you would. But, it's not about how much cash they have or how much it helps New Players vs Veterans... It's about burning through more SP then the game can feasibly offer in terms of sense of progression. After you unlock everything in the game you're literally down to just getting stuff like Ammo Capacity or Fitting Optimization for your weapons. That's not new content being unlocked, it's just tuning the dials on the stuff you already have. Yes, it eliminates one of the biggest barriers for new players... But considering that it would take that same player just 9-10 months to reach that goal, my concern is that we're not going to be holding on to them for very long. Not every player is going to cap out everything; they might just cap out their playstyle (mine being Gal Assault) and then realize they can only move sideways from there - into other playstyles that they might not care for. How do we keep them interested after that..? Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1496	Posted - 2014.11.07 12:53:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. You forgot the other racial vehicles yet to be added 1a. Also varients of the HAV and maybe LAV, what about the MAV? 1b. What about other turrets like lazers and artillery etc? 1c. What about modules that they can bring back or add more new 1d. Skills 1e. Pilot suits and modules 2. Nothing stopping them from adding more skills anyways 3. Its not that bad, this cap for the month is a one off so make the most of it because i doubt it will ever be so high since you can earn 12mil active in a month 4. I worry more about low payouts of ISK I -SEVERELY- doubt that racial vehicles/MAVs/Lasers/Artillery will be added. It's already been stated several times that it's not likely to happen so... They said the same thing about updates for Dust but look what happened. 1.9 came along. 1.9 isn't a real content update. It is a realistic addendum to the long delayed series of fixes unfixable server side. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1596	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:02:00 - [17] - Quote how much time does a regular ps3 game cost nowadays? 60Gé¼? image a new player spents ~60Gé¼ like he would do with any other game? with some guidance from a "vet" he would be able to get into the game fast and play with some bigger fish.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1638	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:04:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: firstly the WEEKLY BONUS DOES NOT MULTIPLY! only the SP you gain via Warpoints (before bonus weekly SP is applied) stop stirring the pot and put the tinfoil hat Down! ps. vets dont "need" the extra SP as much as newbros. getting a newbro up to speed takes like 3-5m sp just to be competent with standard gear and have some advanced items like weapons and some other moduals [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1763	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:18:00 - [19] - Quote I had the same concern until somebody pointed out just how much of a full on grind it's going to be. Like no a no lifeing poop-socking of a grind. If you're willing to go to all that effort then you're welcome to it. For context I'm on 35mil SP for my main, 20 something for my alt. Also CCP R said it was initially a mistake but they decided to stick with it for a month to see how it goes, it'll likely go after that, just think of as an event. A quadruple SP month event. We'll bang, OK?
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 322	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:34:00 - [20] - Quote If players are getting running out of things to unlock then the problem isn't the SP, its the lack of content. Its Dust's grind that has significantly contributed to keeping new players out, and the givs vets thier feeling of superiority the less grind the better. Also given the fact that whenever the devs feel it is necessary they rework an entire skill tree and continually redo stats that make or break your SP investment, its better to have better easier acess to SP so that your time doesn't feel terribly wasted. At the base 180,000 SP a week, should i really invest 3 weeks of my life grinding inorder to get profile dampening level 5? 3% extra proficiency for 1.2 million SP? If spending the most money and time you possibly can on dust and it would still take 9 months to hit 70 mil, thats just fine. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5213	Posted - 2014.11.07 13:38:00 - [21] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I thought Rattati already said that the 750k cap is only for this month, and that after the 4th or 5th of Dec the numbers will be reworked so that 750k is the MAX possible cap, after all boosters are applied? This multi-million SP thing is an error, but being allowed for the month so that Omega purchasers who've stacked already can get what they paid for? They need to get some kind of notification in game. I can hear the QQ now from people who don't check Dev posts on the forums. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7085	Posted - 2014.11.08 00:45:00 - [22] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: firstly the WEEKLY BONUS DOES NOT MULTIPLY! only the SP you gain via Warpoints (before bonus weekly SP is applied) stop stirring the pot and put the tinfoil hat Down! ps. vets dont "need" the extra SP as much as newbros. getting a newbro up to speed takes like 3-5m sp just to be competent with standard gear and have some advanced items like weapons and some other moduals Dude, it literally says 'x2.5' in your character screen and if you know even basic mathematics (we're talking pre-algebra here) you'd realize that 'x' + 50% is the same as 'x' * 1.5. That means, quite literally, that three 50% boosters is the same as 150% or a multiplicative of 2.5 and the in-game UI reflects this. Thor Odinson42 wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I thought Rattati already said that the 750k cap is only for this month, and that after the 4th or 5th of Dec the numbers will be reworked so that 750k is the MAX possible cap, after all boosters are applied? This multi-million SP thing is an error, but being allowed for the month so that Omega purchasers who've stacked already can get what they paid for? They need to get some kind of notification in game. I can hear the QQ now from people who don't check Dev posts on the forums. Go read my response to him before you try to sound smart. Rattati did -NOT- say that the 750k cap was -ONLY- for this month, only that they were going to try it out for a month and data-check it to see if it's an actual problem which insinuates that there is a possibility - if not an outright plausibility - that it could continue. The entire point of this thread was give logic and reason why that would be a bad idea and I wouldn't have posted it up if I hadn't read what Rattati posted five times over for clarification. Legion Transparency Me and My Girl


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