DUST Search - Sticky:Balance Hotfix

XxGhazbaranxX wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

I don't see the reason to undo the nerf to the HMG.

We're talking about a weapon that can kill a suit in a fraction of a second, it can wipe a squad in 5 seconds.
That nerf would reduce HMG time to overheat from 6.17 to 5.55, ooohh!! Scary!

Increasing it to 5.84 won't make a dent in the HMG population if that's what you're looking for.

Not undone. Lessened.

However, except for the militia version, which sucks, unless we change the operating range of the HMG keeping it as a sustained engagement weapon will keep the spam strong. Until a better solution is found I would go with your previous numbers from STD to officer, Rattati.

I like the buff to the militia, I'm dubious about lessening the planned penalty to tge regular ones.

Another thing that could be done is normalizing the heat across all HMGs and making the buildup the same as standard at all levels.

So long as there is a heat advantage to the MH-82 and Boundless people will compensate for the change by upgrading by one tier so they can be unaffected.

And I RARELY ever overheat the standard as we have now. You want to make HMGs less attractive to FOTM avengers.

Make the only advantage at each tier a DPS increase, nothing more.

TBH i like my militia HMG, i even have the bpo. Managing my heat gives the weapon another level of mastery. If CCP normalizes the heat build up, i think it should be based on the militia HMG which provides the most challenge for heat management.

True heavies wont mind since they are used to a lot of heat from back when the amar heavy gave a heat reduction bonus. People got used to it then , they will get used to it now

EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4564	Posted - 2014.11.06 15:43:00 - [1] - Quote Quote: HMG-Sentinel is simply too dominant across all game modes. The best way to allow other Frames to combat them is to get them when they are down. I believe Heat is the best way to manage this situation. Good Sentinels will manage their heat well and not be bothered by this change. Bandaid solution. Heat buildup isn't going to solve the sentinel dominance unless you completely strip the HMG of utility. Eviction of sentinels from CQC is the only way to kick this problem off the board. Either that or sentinels will have to be reworked from the ground up for what the fifth or sixth time now? This problem is one I predicted in beta when everyone insisted that the HMG be CQC only. Making it shorter sustained operation can only go so far before you hit a tipping point and the weapon breaks completely. While I am well aware that you probably disagree with me I'm already skilling into assaults because the spam is obnoxious. But the heat on the MLT HMG already makes the gun borderline unusable because you overheat right around 1/3-1/2 the drum. Changing the HMG to pull sentinels out of cqc except for the Burst is going to be the simplest and most effective answer because the burst represents what a CQC heavy weapon Should be. You made the burst awesome. But the HMG standard line is always going to hang on the razor's edge between "too effective" and "too broken to use" because it is built like a fire support weapon and then shoehorned into CQC. My two cents. Hopefully you take a poke at the idea instead of dismissing it. In any case... QUAFE SUITS! The snuggle is real. TL;DR: I think about DUST entirely too much and need to find a better hobby. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4579	Posted - 2014.11.06 18:06:00 - [2] - Quote Quote: Militia HMG23.525.0nerf Standard HMG1820.0nerf Advanced HMG17.119.0nerf Prototype HMG16.218.0nerf Officer HMG15.317.0nerf Current values are actually as follows: Militia: 23.5 Standard: 16 Advanced: 15.2 Prototype: 14.4 Officer: I don't have a Gastun's to check. So you're going to be hitting the HMG a bit harder than you thought. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4605	Posted - 2014.11.06 22:24:00 - [3] - Quote Nevermind. I have changed my mind. Break the HMG over your knee Rattati. Kill the spam dead. let the scouts run free. Let's give the scout nerds their fondest wish: someone to take the heat for them. Once the HMG is dead you can have a good long look. The burst is working as intended. We can rock that for a bit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4606	Posted - 2014.11.06 23:51:00 - [4] - Quote Switch the ranges on the assault and breach variants of each weapon and you fix the problem. Breach weapons will always overperform in CQC. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4626	Posted - 2014.11.07 06:29:00 - [5] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Nevermind. I have changed my mind. Break the HMG over your knee Rattati. Kill the spam dead. let the scouts run free. Let's give the scout nerds their fondest wish: someone to take the heat for them. Once the HMG is dead you can have a good long look. The burst is working as intended. We can rock that for a bit. Ask yourself: What would it be like if my HMG built up heat 9% faster? Because that's the change. It's significant but you're going from heat barely being an issue. It's not like raising it 9% for ScR. And the fact is: sentinals dominate DUST 514. The whole game turns on them, especially PC. This is balance and it will make the game faster and funner. More fluid. Wake up and smell the coffins my friend. The rest of us are dying all the time. Join the party. No I was saying break it. Go further. I want all the suit pollution to find itzelf needung a respec because EZ mode got killed and I firmly believe that the solution to heavy dominance is eviction from CQC. I don't believe a permanent solution can be found without this. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4638	Posted - 2014.11.07 12:33:00 - [6] - Quote I'd drop precision mods in the highs and put a pair of range mods in the low. Stealth? I am a rifleman. My mission is to locate, close with, and destroy you. Galassault rifleman motto right there Amarr will simply hold the line and see you coming. Then kill you. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4640	Posted - 2014.11.07 12:54:00 - [7] - Quote Black ops style play requires stealth. And you can drop a LOT of damps on a gallente assault team. They don't have to be invisible. They just need to get within their brawling optimal undetected. What happens when your first hint of an enemy is the Galassault who pops around the corner and sprays you in the face with plasma? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4674	Posted - 2014.11.08 10:00:00 - [8] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Increase precision on scanners and increase the bonus to precision on gallente logistics suit. That way you can scan crappy ssuits but for anyone willing tp put points jn dampening it will take more than that. I would suggest the following: Applies to players fully skilled into dampening using no dampeners. a standard scanner cannot pick up heavy suits or below unless the scanner user has at least level 1 in gallente logi in which case he can scan heavy suits but not medium or light with the standard scanner. An advanced scanner can scan heavy suits without the user being skilled in gallente logistics. An advanced scanner cannot pick up medium suits unless the user is using a gallente logistics suit with the gallente logi skill at level 3. A proto scanner can scan heavy and medium suits without any skills into the gallente logistics suit but not scouts. A proto scanner user can scan scouts only if the user has level 5 in gallente logistics. focused scanner should be reduced to 75 meter but can scann all suit types. Imagine me singing this th mary had a little lamb "Have you lost your goddamn mind? Goddamn mind goddamn mind? Have you lost your goddamned mind and where the hell'd it go?" EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4681	Posted - 2014.11.08 11:22:00 - [9] - Quote Rattati while I believe that heat control plays a part in balancing the HMG it is not the whole story. It will only drop the numbers when you hit the heat threshold where there is no functional difference between the burst and standard HMGs. It provides too much of an advantage in close-in fighting to regulate down to appreciable without knocking it to a short burst operating weapon. I can tell you that it will not fall off in popularity until it's usefulness is measured in single digit seconds which will obviates it's purpose of sustained fire point defense. Further because of the sentinels focus on CQC to the exclusion of all else touching mobility does more damage than good and will break the class as we saw in chrome with HMGS that operated only at close ranges without the abikity to track strafing enemies. But the CQC arena also obviates the drawbacks of the heavy frame due to the fact that almost all of the primary objectives have zero visibility outside the HMG optimal. This creates a no-win situation for most light weapons except scout run weapons because the scout can cause HMG hit detection to fail, but more likely the sentinel won't see them. the scout sentinel interaction isn't a problem. The things that are required to make scouts efficient vs. HMG heavies lead to scouts also having unnerving efficacy versus assaults who should be the scissors to scout paper. But let's go down the list. Hitbox: you can't miss a sentinel, this is established but in CQC you cannot maneuver well enoughor get enough range to capitalize on this. CQC negates the hitbox disadvantage. Speed: CQC obviates the need for speed and maneuverability by forcing fast moving opponents to move with caution through established and predictable chokepoints to engage which allows sentinels to negate their maneuverability problems. Range: An LAV can be exploited to get a heavy into optimal. Because of the hull buffs to LAVS AV grenades are no longer an effective deterrent as any LAV without any modules requires two shots with any prototype AV to kill. CQC forces assault dropsuits to engage inside HMG optimal leading to a need for the use of OHK alpha to evict sentinels entrenched. This tactic is unreliable and easily countered. Scouts: because scouts have to be able to kill heavies in CQC they are less vulnerable to attack by assaults. Sensor blindness: Sentinels are sensor blind but can entrench in positions where their backs are to a wall and all approaches are covered within optimal. Mobility: turn speed penalty was removed from the dropsuit because you cannot have a designated CQC platform that can be torched like a turtle on it's back. Vulnerability to focused fire: CQC allows chokepoints that force other players to engage face to face one at a time. The problem is not the sentinel, the problem is the assigned venue combined with a sustained fire weapon. CQC negates heavy disadvantages. Period. The only place where sentinels are vulnerable is open terrain. Rattati your work with the burst is beautiful. That iteration of the HMG is what a CQC heavy weapon should be. It has sufficient drawbacks to not dominate because it is not a sustained engagement weapon. However, the other two HMG iterations create more problems in CQC than any other weapon. The only way to bring them in line without basically making them burst HMG copypasta with a few tweaks is to remove them from CQC and make them open ground, area denial weapons. I suggest placing a turn speed penalty on the standard and assault variants to discourage their use in CQC and buffing their range so they remain powerful squad support weapons but with an exploitable weakness commiserate to the burst. Assaults should not be helpless against sentinels in close and sentinels are not nearly exposed enough to weapons that can torch them while entrenched. I admire your willingness to review the issue and I'll be damned if I don't agree that Sentinels are too dominant. But the approach you are taking will require making the burst a better choice in all situations to accomplish the same mission. Please consider changing the gun's role to change the dynamic of the dropsuit. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4706	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:22:00 - [10] - Quote Militia HMGs are almost less efficient than using an assault rifle. The overheat almost makes the burst HMG look forgiving. And no. Unless the almost can be removed from my statements the spam will not stop. You underestimate the persistence of players looking for easy fast kills. The HMG is always going to be on the razor's edge because CQC negates all disadvantages of the sentinel suits themselves. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4773	Posted - 2014.11.10 08:12:00 - [11] - Quote Ok I'm not sure I am reading the HMG numbers correctly since I missed your setup the first critique. You are bringing the HMG at standard level up from 16 to 18 or 19? Your writeup is unclear. And yes I want sentinels less dominant. I appreciate you listened about the MLT HMG. That thing is currently not particularly useful at all. I like the new officer HMG even if I seem to suck with it. Could that firing model be adapted for use as the assault HMG methodology? Or something. I just like it. It appeals. It doesn't seem to outperform a boundless or Gastun's. I'm still mulling over the damn thing. Take my commentary on it with a grain of salt for now. I just think it is very Interesting. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4798	Posted - 2014.11.10 15:29:00 - [12] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: I understand the Gal should play their strengths but this type of change would just bring a strength to the Cal suit and bring a weakness to the Gal suit which is easy detectability. If the Gal and Am suit are not meant to dampen if this change rolls out at the very least the need another strength to compensate, that being either stronger scans or survivability etc. This assertion is odd given the meta of HP>all. You mean being detected might affect survivability? But what happens if a gallente fits a proto damp or two to compensate while running reps? What happens if you bother with precision mods to compensate for the more stealthy nature of shields? EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4798	Posted - 2014.11.10 16:23:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I don't see the reason to undo the nerf to the HMG. We're talking about a weapon that can kill a suit in a fraction of a second, it can wipe a squad in 5 seconds. That nerf would reduce HMG time to overheat from 6.17 to 5.55, ooohh!! Scary! Increasing it to 5.84 won't make a dent in the HMG population if that's what you're looking for. Not undone. Lessened. However, except for the militia version, which sucks, unless we change the operating range of the HMG keeping it as a sustained engagement weapon will keep the spam strong. Until a better solution is found I would go with your previous numbers from STD to officer, Rattati. I like the buff to the militia, I'm dubious about lessening the planned penalty to tge regular ones. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4806	Posted - 2014.11.10 18:33:00 - [14] - Quote XxGhazbaranxX wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I don't see the reason to undo the nerf to the HMG. We're talking about a weapon that can kill a suit in a fraction of a second, it can wipe a squad in 5 seconds. That nerf would reduce HMG time to overheat from 6.17 to 5.55, ooohh!! Scary! Increasing it to 5.84 won't make a dent in the HMG population if that's what you're looking for. Not undone. Lessened. However, except for the militia version, which sucks, unless we change the operating range of the HMG keeping it as a sustained engagement weapon will keep the spam strong. Until a better solution is found I would go with your previous numbers from STD to officer, Rattati. I like the buff to the militia, I'm dubious about lessening the planned penalty to tge regular ones. Another thing that could be done is normalizing the heat across all HMGs and making the buildup the same as standard at all levels. So long as there is a heat advantage to the MH-82 and Boundless people will compensate for the change by upgrading by one tier so they can be unaffected. And I RARELY ever overheat the standard as we have now. You want to make HMGs less attractive to FOTM avengers. Make the only advantage at each tier a DPS increase, nothing more. TBH i like my militia HMG, i even have the bpo. Managing my heat gives the weapon another level of mastery. If CCP normalizes the heat build up, i think it should be based on the militia HMG which provides the most challenge for heat management. True heavies wont mind since they are used to a lot of heat from back when the amar heavy gave a heat reduction bonus. People got used to it then , they will get used to it now that wasn't heat reduction. that was overheat damage reduction. Only useful if you were running LR or scrambler. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4833	Posted - 2014.11.10 22:31:00 - [15] - Quote what the hell. The more I think about it, the more I think it will work. Rattati please make all variants of the HMG gain heat at the same rate as the STD variant. that way when you adjust the heat for one you don't need to worry about whether it will affect the upper tiers as well. It will also pretty much put the strong trigger control sentinels in the driver's seat and relegate the lazy buggers to dying under the guns of buttmad and vengeful assaults. Please, go nuts. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4856	Posted - 2014.11.11 05:17:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: what the hell. The more I think about it, the more I think it will work. Rattati please make all variants of the HMG gain heat at the same rate as the STD variant. that way when you adjust the heat for one you don't need to worry about whether it will affect the upper tiers as well. It will also pretty much put the strong trigger control sentinels in the driver's seat and relegate the lazy buggers to dying under the guns of buttmad and vengeful assaults. Please, go nuts. I thought we were supposed to use scalpels and not hammers? Is it a scalpel or a hammer? Is only the MH-82 overperforming? The Boundless? I'm willing to bet real money that the Standard is the closest HMG to not overperforming. But making them all eat up at the same rate wiill tick off the tourists while leaving solid heavy players mostly unaffected. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4858	Posted - 2014.11.11 08:50:00 - [17] - Quote The caldari assault compensates by having a harder hitting weapon. This is shown by the sheer number of Galassault using the RR. And just because it is not an assaults JOB to be a sneak, that doesn't automatically mean it should be nonviable. The problem with refuting a change based on the metric of "not your/my job" is that it limits choices and natively leads to one-true-build. One-true-build should be killed with fire because that leads to homogeneous fits. We're well familiar with the issue given the number of FOTM fits that all match in lockstep. Opening variety is an excellent choice because if EWAR, for example, opens to assaults then the caldari and minmatar will natively benefit more from stealth and gallente and amarr will benefit more from detection. Giving players more options to play with is ALWAYS better than encouraging power creep, which always comes when nothing is a viable build but "your job." We have a sharp power curve based on dropsuit tiers, but very little lateral utility. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4931	Posted - 2014.11.13 10:15:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Militia HMG23.5~~25.0~~buff; new 22.8 Standard HMG18~~20.0~~nerf; new 19 Advanced HMG17.1~~19.0~~nerf; 18.1 Prototype HMG16.2~~18.0~~nerf; 17.1 Officer HMG15.3~~17.0~~nerf; 16.2 If this fails to flush some of the problem my recommendation is to set all variants to either 18 or 19 as a universal heat generation rate. Excep the MLT, which I believe should always remain a flat 2 points higher. Officer should be two points lower. The mainline of regular HMG's are hard to see a balance point because they all have different DPS rates and they all sustain at different rates with the boundless being not only highest DPS but the longest fire time before overheat. Some normalizing might help get the HMG spam under control. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4934	Posted - 2014.11.13 12:40:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I believe this has been deployed today, sorry, we ran into last minute issues on both tuesday and wednesday. Enjoy. Thanks for the heads up. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4944	Posted - 2014.11.13 16:23:00 - [20] - Quote bezmel ferrers wrote: i have an idea for a nerf that would fix the last updates biggest problem REMOVE THE PROTO BPOS!!! Oh FFS get out. They fixed the fitting bug. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5025	Posted - 2014.11.15 09:47:00 - [21] - Quote I was the one firing in the video in my glorious pinkie fit. I fired four shots each time and the second shot went off at the exact moment I decloaked from my view as well as Kain's. The difference is kain uses an open mic so I heard my first shots feeding back to my ears as I fired the fourth shot. So lag is still a major issue in matches and allows more instagibs. I personally suck with scouts but once I hit level 5 cloak/scout I imagine the marginal performance I'm getting now will enjoy a sharp uptick. Oddly enough though playing scouts and pulling off tge gibs, while funny, is sleep inducing for me. I get bored fast and swap back to my EVERYBODY SHOOT ME pink fatsuits. I enjoy the attention. I also have been having far more FUN in general running assaults over heavy suits (commandos just suck). Caldari suits, properly fit, are hilarious even at STD level. But minmatar assault + mass drivers are just pure comedy. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5029	Posted - 2014.11.15 14:54:00 - [22] - Quote Two shots. I was the gunner in that vid. Third shot happens fast enough after I was decloaked that there wouldn't have been enough time to react. One shot as the decloak animation starts. One as I become fully visible. Two more shots in under a second. The shotgun was firing as fast as I can pull the trigger with the fire delay EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.