DUST Search - A Voice of Reason.

Ace Boone wrote:

In midst of all the scout hate and complaints, I figured I would go down a list of complaints to debunk (in a sense).

Scouts are overpowered because of eWar mods, NO ONE ELSE HAS eWar: Though this is true, the reason other classes do not have great eWar is due to the scout having a significant less amount of HP compared to other classes. When equipping eWar mods, it makes an even bigger sacrifice on HP for stealth so you can be unseen and flank (as intended).

Scouts are overpowered because of cloaks:

This argument really rustles my jimmies because this is just not true at all. Yes, in theory, the idea of a cloak may sound overpowered, but in practice, it is not AT ALL. It is very easily seen and badly restricts precision while cloaked. You are invisible when cloaked, but also blinded due to 85% reduction in signature. Not only this, but when cloaked, you are in a very vulnerable state due to your weapon being sheathed, and your sole tool is stealth.

Scouts are overpowered because they get the most kills in pubs and PC

Welp, this is true. However, with that being said, it is also because a majority of very old school players now use scouts, and with the use of eWar, it makes a highly skilled player even better. Though HMGs cause the most death overall, shotgunning scouts are a close second (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2436325#post2436325). I agree that the scout is a good slayer, but only due to it's flanking ability. Flanking will usually grant any player in any suit an easy kill, with a shotgun, IT'S THE ONLY OPTION AS IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO USE IN FACE TO FACE ENCOUNTERS.

If a scout has good eWar mods equipped, he has low eHP. If he's tanked, he just gets outclassed by every other suit and if he's speed tanked, he's useless. The only thing scouts are good for is picking and choosing fights and flanking AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. If you lose to a scout in a 1v1 because you get outstrafed, it's not because of the scout, it's because your aim is bad and you can't strafe either and it would happen even if that person was in an assault suit.

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Ace Boone 334	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:44:00 - [1] - Quote In midst of all the scout hate and complaints, I figured I would go down a list of complaints to debunk (in a sense). Scouts are overpowered because of eWar mods, NO ONE ELSE HAS eWar: Though this is true, the reason other classes do not have great eWar is due to the scout having a significant less amount of HP compared to other classes. When equipping eWar mods, it makes an even bigger sacrifice on HP for stealth so you can be unseen and flank (as intended). Scouts are overpowered because of cloaks: This argument really rustles my jimmies because this is just not true at all. Yes, in theory, the idea of a cloak may sound overpowered, but in practice, it is not AT ALL. It is very easily seen and badly restricts precision while cloaked. You are invisible when cloaked, but also blinded due to 85% reduction in signature. Not only this, but when cloaked, you are in a very vulnerable state due to your weapon being sheathed, and your sole tool is stealth. Scouts are overpowered because they get the most kills in pubs and PC Welp, this is true. However, with that being said, it is also because a majority of very old school players now use scouts, and with the use of eWar, it makes a highly skilled player even better. Though HMGs cause the most death overall, shotgunning scouts are a close second (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2436325#post2436325). I agree that the scout is a good slayer, but only due to it's flanking ability. Flanking will usually grant any player in any suit an easy kill, with a shotgun, IT'S THE ONLY OPTION AS IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO USE IN FACE TO FACE ENCOUNTERS. If a scout has good eWar mods equipped, he has low eHP. If he's tanked, he just gets outclassed by every other suit and if he's speed tanked, he's useless. The only thing scouts are good for is picking and choosing fights and flanking AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. If you lose to a scout in a 1v1 because you get outstrafed, it's not because of the scout, it's because your aim is bad and you can't strafe either and it would happen even if that person was in an assault suit. Only loyal to the republic.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4353	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:47:00 - [2] - Quote You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. If cloaks were truly invisible, they'd be OP beyond recognition.
Hector Carson BLACK MAGES INC. 73	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:49:00 - [3] - Quote wow just wow, he's probably just pissed because I sniped him while he was cloaked lol Scout shoots Sentinel like a BOSS.........with a Bolt Pistol
Ace Boone 335	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:49:00 - [4] - Quote Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. If cloaks were truly invisible, they'd be OP beyond recognition. It's not used to make you invisible, just slightly harder to spot so that you can get past their peripheral. Only loyal to the republic.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2757	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:51:00 - [5] - Quote I use eWAR on my Assault and Logi.... Precisions on Logi, 2x dampeners on the Assault to dodge non-Gal Logi active scans "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 13466	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:53:00 - [6] - Quote Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4355	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:53:00 - [7] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. If cloaks were truly invisible, they'd be OP beyond recognition. It's not used to make you invisible, just slightly harder to spot so that you can get past their peripheral. Then why did you state in your OP that it makes you invisible? I don't get it.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 13466	Posted - 2014.11.06 04:55:00 - [8] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Then why did you state in your OP that it makes you invisible? I don't get it. Because there are many situations where it does indeed make you invisible. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 40	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:01:00 - [9] - Quote I noticed that the cloak is quite visible from a distance, more difficult to see up close. Kind of odd. Regarding strafing, the hit detection improvement seems to be helping quite a bit. I expect a lot of so-called scouts will be moving on to something else soon. True scouts, from what I can tell, will be deadly dangerous no matter what.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4355	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:02:00 - [10] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo Saw the video. I haven't met a fully invisible scout, nor have I heard of their encounters. As this is most likely a bug (not intended to be in the game for obvious reasons), it does not count. I repeat: Cloaks DO NOT make toy invisible. Well, they're not supposed to.

Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 620	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:08:00 - [11] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: In midst of all the scout hate and complaints, I figured I would go down a list of complaints to debunk (in a sense). Scouts are overpowered because of eWar mods, NO ONE ELSE HAS eWar: Though this is true, the reason other classes do not have great eWar is due to the scout having a significant less amount of HP compared to other classes. When equipping eWar mods, it makes an even bigger sacrifice on HP for stealth so you can be unseen and flank (as intended). Scouts are overpowered because of cloaks: This argument really rustles my jimmies because this is just not true at all. Yes, in theory, the idea of a cloak may sound overpowered, but in practice, it is not AT ALL. It is very easily seen and badly restricts precision while cloaked. You are invisible when cloaked, but also blinded due to 85% reduction in signature. Not only this, but when cloaked, you are in a very vulnerable state due to your weapon being sheathed, and your sole tool is stealth. Scouts are overpowered because they get the most kills in pubs and PC Welp, this is true. However, with that being said, it is also because a majority of very old school players now use scouts, and with the use of eWar, it makes a highly skilled player even better. Though HMGs cause the most death overall, shotgunning scouts are a close second (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2436325#post2436325). I agree that the scout is a good slayer, but only due to it's flanking ability. Flanking will usually grant any player in any suit an easy kill, with a shotgun, IT'S THE ONLY OPTION AS IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO USE IN FACE TO FACE ENCOUNTERS. If a scout has good eWar mods equipped, he has low eHP. If he's tanked, he just gets outclassed by every other suit and if he's speed tanked, he's useless. The only thing scouts are good for is picking and choosing fights and flanking AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. If you lose to a scout in a 1v1 because you get outstrafed, it's not because of the scout, it's because your aim is bad and you can't strafe either and it would happen even if that person was in an assault suit. One thing people never mention about why the cloaked scout has been bad is lag. Stuff syncs a full one second after it has occured on my system. I'm paying for the highest bandwidth I can get in America. I tested it. I thought I was a bad player. Not as much as I thought. Lag really does affect ability. Therefore, anything that allows for quick alpha attack is simply not fair and should be compensated for. This is a game. Beginning from a point of fairness, as in sports, is a must. Also, as I've said before, a cloaked scout attacking from cloak simply changes the type of game this is. Great for arena lobby rumble, not good for any sort of ground combat game. Boycott Black Thursday!
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 4355	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:12:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: Then why did you state in your OP that it makes you invisible? I don't get it. Because there are many situations where it does indeed make you invisible. I find that hard to believe while the word 'many' is used in that sentence. Unless you have a clear sky, or the sun right behind the scout, chances are, he's not that hard to spot (at least for me). When he IS in front of that type of background, the blue color does indeed make him extremely hard to see, but not impossible (If like to say the same thing for the sun as a background, but I've never encountered that scenario). Even when they're standing still, they are not completely invisible, and thus are vulnerable to those with sharp eyes. I've caught a few when they were completely still, and I've been caught the same way as well. Chances are, if you're moving and are cloaked, you WILL NOT be invisible and are able to be spotted easily assuming you are aware of your surroundings. If you can prove to me and show me that when a cloak is working as intended, and users are actually really, REALLY hard to see, then I might actually take your word for it. Of course, you'll also have to take into account the amount of times when you've actually spotted a cloaked scout. Until then, I stand by my own experience, squad members' experience, and my own word.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Capital Punishment. 2385	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:32:00 - [13] - Quote Your post leaves out a few things: 1. E-War. The Scout can fit HP modules in order to bridge the HP gap and still be quite good at seeing things. That health difference is pretty minor in comparison to being able to see so much on the map (atleast comparing my Caldari Assault and Scout) 2. The nerf to cloaks came in yesterday. We are still not sure how effective is was. Saying "Cloak is not OP because of X, Y, and Z" is hard to explain considering X and Y are very new and Z just got a little bit worse. 3. This is not an explanation towards anything. "Of course the Scout gets the most skills; all the old school really good players are now Scouts. Obviously the best players will get the best results!" How do you know it is all the veterans that went Scout while the shooting newbies like me stayed Assault? I would certainly love to know where you got that piece of information. Are Scouts overpowered? Don't know. I can say that I do far, far better with my Caldari Scout fit than I do with my Caldari Assault fit regardless if I play like an 'Assault' or a 'Scout.' And I have noticed that people that state that the Scout is OP will immediately think "Well, we need to buff the Assault!" the second they read the previous sentence. ^_^ @Joel: Saying you have never encountered a fully invisible Scout is a little silly. When was the last time you didn't notice a McDonald's? :-P "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10126	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:45:00 - [14] - Quote Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. If cloaks were truly invisible, they'd be OP beyond recognition. And the only time you ARE invisible is when you're standing still and even then all someone needs to do is pass their reticule over you. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5547	Posted - 2014.11.06 05:52:00 - [15] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: Then why did you state in your OP that it makes you invisible? I don't get it. Because there are many situations where it does indeed make you invisible. The "Invisible Gorilla" doesn't need a cloak to be invisible. No amount of cloak or non cloak will make someone more visible if a merc is completely focused on something else. The reality is, if you are actually looking for cloaked scouts, you will be more likely to see them. If you allow yourself to always get distracted by something else, it doesn't matter whether they are cloaked or not. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 177	Posted - 2014.11.06 06:31:00 - [16] - Quote No voice of reason at all. Scouts are overpowered due to the fact that their suits have the best ewar stats, they have dampening and precision as skill bonuses while others do not, the most speed, the smallest hitboxes, the ability to mimick basic level logistics, the ability to tank enough HP to reach medium levels, the ability to combine stealth with any overpowered light or sidearm weapon, and most of all no role that bounds them to teams like everyone else. The scouts are overpowered arguement is true, but mostly because of the fact that they have already so low scanner profiles Scouts in cloak are not invisible, but it's only a rare time when their shimmer may be very apparent due to the game's rendering or a map. Besides that you can't see them unless you have a rifle with a very long ranged scope, or their very close(basically too late) Cloak delay and radius reductions or not they still have stealth and still have line of sight. Scouts are overpowered because of all of the above. I don't see any "old school players" being the majority. If anything I've seen advanced scout suits more than proto scout suits. Some months ago people also widely recommended new players to use scout suits, way before hotfix charlie further disbalanced scout gameplay. The wide maps make flanking very hard, yet they may be the only people to be able to do so because of their zealous stealth bonuses and cloak. Low eHP or not they're still functional at everything else. If a scout has max eWar and max skill bonuses they are NOT outclassed. If a scout has the same max eWar and max skill bonuses they are NOT useless when speed tanking. You must be living under a rock to watch anyone being nova knifed. As I typed before there are more advanced scouts than proto, and with one of those skills maxed or both one can outclass the rest. The "outstrafed by scout = bad aim" part just is more random and nonsensical blabber. Basically talking out of your ass was rampant here but it hasn't reached a level this high
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7018	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:00:00 - [17] - Quote It's kind of hard to claim that Cloaks aren't over-powered because of signature reduction when that change happened less than 76 hours ago. Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
Aeon Amadi Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 7018	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:08:00 - [18] - Quote Atiim wrote: Joel II X wrote: You are NOT invisible while cloaked. You are slightly harder to see. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo Damn good video representation. I've said it plenty of times but it's always disputed when I bring it up (mostly because, as Judge mentioned, the Toupee fallacy; just never knew how to word it). Light = Scouts best friend. Contrary to the idea of cloak and dagger style gameplay being more closely aligned to shadows and what not. Legion Transparency Me and My Girl
Lynn Beck Delta Vanguard 6 2189	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:10:00 - [19] - Quote IMO scouts are OP based on their ability to straight brick tank and have more shield regen than Assaults(CalScout 50/s with 400~ achievable, that's at worst 12 seconds to regen shield, meanwhile Min assault at 400 shield @ 30/s recharges in 13 not even counting delays.) If we swapped scouts' shield recharge rates with assaults(fine, let the damn things have the best delays) and gave Shield Extenders a better penalty(increase to profile or decrease precision) then we wouldn't have scouts who brick and still scan all things medium/heavy. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation
STYLIE77 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 257	Posted - 2014.11.06 07:10:00 - [20] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: No voice of reason at all. The "outstrafed by scout = bad aim" part just is more random and nonsensical blabber. Basically talking out of your ass was rampant here but it hasn't reached a level this high I will take this a step further as you mention the combo of speed (breaking hit detection) and stealth (ewar). Right now Action Adventure games are selling big numbers. What common thing to games like Last of Us, Metal Gear Solid, Assassin's Creed, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Thief, Far Cry 3, Dishonored, and even Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor have in common? OP Stealth abilities that let a SINGLE PLAYER wipe out dozens of NPC players by giving them advantages. Either some sort of invisibility or silence and a knowledge of the enemies location. All the while the enemy NPC has no clue where you are. This is fine and well for SINGLE PLAYER action... However, if you put this OP mechanic into a multi-player environment with just ONE of the available classes... you just destroyed any hope of balance. So here we have it, Scouts 514... your Character Login Screen Avatar has even been changed to a SCOUT. Just to show you CCP's dedication to the CLOAKING mechanic that the marketing side will SHOWCASE when advertising Eve: Legion. We have already seen CCP pay to insert Legion gameplay in a recent movie and guess what... you saw the cloak. The cloaking mechanic is a CORNERSTONE marketing device for this game and the next. It is not going away, EVER. Seeing how invested CCP is in Cloaking, the best we can hope for is other nerfs to the scout in the way of PG/CPU or ewar. Drop the over all PG/CPU give the suit a role bonus for the cloak and the shotgun fitting so that scouts can fit those and ewar. All other modules and weapons have normal PG/CPU requirements forcing the scout to either be invisible with less than 200 ehp or tanked with low alpha damage. Otherwise the suit is OP and Dust is broken due to the class imbalance. CCP has the hard numbers, they know the scouts are running rampant and they have a dilemma... You see all these stealth games people are enjoying right now? The scout specifically markets to them as a demographic, a group that will be attracted to the ninja cloak mechanics... Since that demographic is driving a large percent of the market share, CCP is forced to work for their attention. And to that end, the scout will only be slightly nerfed unless the correlation between new user accounts and attraction to the stealth mechanic is not shown in CCP's statistics. That is my opinion.



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