DUST Search - AV and vehicle proposed possible solutions

Derrith Erador wrote:

Bella's Dance: I named this move after watching an anime where this ballerina (or maybe a gymnast, I don't know) was jumping and she did this midair cartwheel, but sort of diagonally. Didn't care what her name was, so I called her Bella.

The move starts off: Hitting the AB, pulling back on the left stick, while holding L1, and holding right on the right stick. When about to do the turn, push the left stick forward, letting go of right stick, keep accelerating. After that, you'll have to turn around, while still flying in the same direction. To do this, You have to push right on right stick, while pushing to the upper right of the left stick, while keeping your L1 and L2 well controlled. You'll need to also move your left stick up and down as needed.
WARNING: Do not tilt too much when doing this, you will ruin the move.
Once you've got the backdraft in, you'll need to wait for the swarm to be about 10 meters away. What you'll do is hold the right stick right, while pushing the left stick to the upper right, and using L1, and switching to L2 halfway through, adjusting your left stick as needed.

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Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2969	Posted - 2014.11.03 17:44:00 - [1] - Quote After giving some thought, and some research to this, I've decided to make yet another AV vs V thread. I'll start with AV: For forges: Damage is currently alright the way it is. I personally would like to see them get a minor buff to range. Nothing too extreme though. For PLC: I personally believe that making a variant for AA would be the best solution. It, in my thoughts, would be like this. Smaller splash Smaller round 2 clip magazine a little less damage higher speed lower drop In theory, this should make a good AA variant to the PLC. Keep in mind that's in theory. For Swarms: I just sold my soul to the swarms, and after trying it out in a few matches, I got quite a few beefs with this weapon. Issue 1: Did you know that at STD level that your swarms lock box is 16x larger than a forges hit box? The sizes compared are as follows: STD: 16x forge, 8x PLC ADV: 20x forge, 12x PLC PRO: 24x forge, 16x PLC Issue 2: I decided to test this weapon out further and found some interesting results. Apparently the swarm can still lock on to a vehicle, even when it is outside of the the lock box. I tried this against a tank, LAV and an DS. So not only is your lock box 16 to 24 times the size of a forge crosshair, you get a bonus outer area one. issue 3: whenever I have to evade swarms, I usually have to do one of two things. A) Fly insanely close to a building. That would be fine, if not for one thing. I've seen swarms fly through the buildings edge. It doesn't help that much. B) Whenever buildings aren't an option to me, I have to employ a technique that is by far the most difficult move to master in the ADS, simply because of the amount of control required for the move, and the impeccable timing I need. I wrote this move down when making a guide to ADS: Derrith Erador wrote: Bella's Dance: I named this move after watching an anime where this ballerina (or maybe a gymnast, I don't know) was jumping and she did this midair cartwheel, but sort of diagonally. Didn't care what her name was, so I called her Bella. The move starts off: Hitting the AB, pulling back on the left stick, while holding L1, and holding right on the right stick. When about to do the turn, push the left stick forward, letting go of right stick, keep accelerating. After that, you'll have to turn around, while still flying in the same direction. To do this, You have to push right on right stick, while pushing to the upper right of the left stick, while keeping your L1 and L2 well controlled. You'll need to also move your left stick up and down as needed. WARNING: Do not tilt too much when doing this, you will ruin the move. Once you've got the backdraft in, you'll need to wait for the swarm to be about 10 meters away. What you'll do is hold the right stick right, while pushing the left stick to the upper right, and using L1, and switching to L2 halfway through, adjusting your left stick as needed. Add to the fact that I have to be a fair distance from the swarm to pull this off effectively. My main problem isn't the fact that this move is so difficult, it's the fact that the move you use is hold R1 for 1.05 seconds, release, and occasionally jump or strafe. Comparing it to that, no contest. Issue 4: When using the forge and PLC, I noticed that when charging them up, you suffer from lower strafe. Swarms suffer no strafe whatsoever. I'm going to go ahead and let the swarmers tell me exactly why all this is need for the trade off of maybe 300 to 500 (ballpark) raw damage compared to PLC and forge, but I probably won't be convinced. Issue 5: This issue is not the fault of AV, but there are plenty of glitched areas where you can drop equipment, and infantry can stand on top of them, but rifle rounds, MD shots and ADS rockets sometimes miss or fall through them. Kind of ticks me off, because in those areas, forges and swarms have the unfair advantage of me not being able to hit them. Again, not their fault. Note: I'm not saying get rid of all of this, but you don't need all this for 300 or so raw less damage per compared to other AV. Now on to vehicles: Tanks: If the fact that the redline was still alive and well, I'd be for giving it a range buff. But as it is, there are people who camp a rail installation in their red zone for the whole match doing nothing, with 12000 EHP might I add. Missile tanks: I've heard people say that taking away some splash damage and giving it some extra splash radius would make it better, but I'm not sure. ADS: There are two main issues surrounding this. Issue 1: ADS is a PG intense role, we need lots of PG for good fits. Python does not have that. On the flip end, there is no reason to skill that much into shield fitting OP. proposed solution, lowering the CPU would help in skilling more into our fitting OP, while buffing our PG a small amount. Note you do not want to buff it too much, I can easily make an OP fit with too much PG, keep that in mind. Issue 2: I'm going to stand by saying increasing our ROF to 5%. But I've also heard alternate solutions to our bonuses. Python: Extra splash radius- I don't really like this idea. Main reason is that this will more than likely cause increased amount of TKs in PC and FW from ADS pilots, causing us to get kicked. Incubus rail: Damage buff: I would be fine with this, if it weren't for one issue. Side gunners are still sniping people with rails. So if this the route you choose, you should add a "shake effect" to door guns to keep them from sniping reds. incubus blaster: This is where I think you should change the bonus. Currently, ROF is hurting blasters. Change the bonus to dispersion, and give them MOAR RANGE! R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2014.11.03 18:25:00 - [2] - Quote 1. Would the PLC lock on and fire & forget or would it be like lazer guided to guide the rounds to the target? 2. Bigger lock box? You mean in comparision to the FG aiming reticule? 2a. Lock on to a vehicle not in its lock box is broke, it also fires while you look away from a target after you have locked on also, can lock on through cover too - The locking mechanism is all kinds of broke 3. I find swarms just go around the building, rarely do they hit it 3a. Evasive manovers are generally useless with a lock on weapon and add in the fact if i slow down in the slightest i get hit and also doesnt help if missiles are invisible 4. I jump with a FG, PLC i havnt touched, Swarms i can bunny hop everywhere and lock on and fire too 5. Clipping - It happens 6. The redline needs to be moved back around 500m or more for both spawns, this essentially makes anyone have to come out to play which leads to flanking 6a. Installations being buffed to 12000hp was a terrible idea in general 7. Missiles have barely any splash, to kill infantry only direct hits work, on vehicle splash doesnt matter 8. Vehicles would all be better off if the Electronic and Engineering offered 5% per level to CPU/PG per level 8a. 5% better than 3% but just not sure if i would even skill back into it 9. Python spalsh seems to be small but is okayish i suppose 10. I rarely see side gunners snipe anything on any vehicle to begin with, i dont even think this is a problem and if they can snipe then fair play to them because as a pilot i know i cant see ppl 200m away 11. Aiming is already quite bad with blasters, but blasters are in a bad place where luck is the main factor in if you kill
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2456	Posted - 2014.11.03 18:37:00 - [3] - Quote Did you know that swarms, factoring in reload times and all skills to 5 minus prof., have a higher sustained DPS than AFG? And that's not even factoring in better damage mods or either of the Minmmando's bonuses. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4389	Posted - 2014.11.03 18:55:00 - [4] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Did you know that swarms, factoring in reload times and all skills to 5 minus prof., have a higher sustained DPS than AFG? And that's not even factoring in better damage mods or either of the Minmmando's bonuses. There isn't a single thing in DUST I need to reload an assault forge gun to kill that isn't out of range anyway by the time I'm done with the loading cycle. Sustained DPS means JACK. Minmando bonus amounts to a difference of approximately 40 HP of damage total. You can output maybe 2% damage more than a triple-modded assault because the minmando caps out with two highs. TTK difference: ZERO. Takes the same number of shots, same as the difference between a forge gun with two damage mods vs. a forge gun with zero damage mods. the hitbar looks like it's moving further but you're not doing the job with less ammo or time firing, so the bonus is a hilarious joke. -1 to everyone screaming that the minmando matters. You get an actual TTK difference with a mass driver vs. infantry, but not swarms vs. vehicles. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 14092	Posted - 2014.11.03 19:07:00 - [5] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Tanks: If the fact that the redline was still alive and well, I'd be for giving it a range buff. But as it is, there are people who camp a rail installation in their red zone for the whole match doing nothing, with 12000 EHP might I add. \ 12K EHP is not possible for tank fits....even if it was it wouldn't be worth a damn. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4392	Posted - 2014.11.03 19:11:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Tanks: If the fact that the redline was still alive and well, I'd be for giving it a range buff. But as it is, there are people who camp a rail installation in their red zone for the whole match doing nothing, with 12000 EHP might I add. \ 12K EHP is not possible for tank fits....even if it was it wouldn't be worth a damn. he's talking about the rail installations. Coffee/Tea BEFORE posting, Adamance. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 13416	Posted - 2014.11.03 19:19:00 - [7] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Did you know that swarms, factoring in reload times and all skills to 5 minus prof., have a higher sustained DPS than AFG? And that's not even factoring in better damage mods or either of the Minmmando's bonuses. Looking at the math: Quote: IAFG: 1500 Damage / 2.3s (2.25s Charge Time & .05s Travel Time) = 652.17 DPS IASL: 1248 Damage / 2.15s (1.05s Lock Time, 0.3s Fire Delay, & 1s Travel Time) = 580.46 DPS* If the travel time on the Swarms were 0s, than the Swarm Launcher would out DPS the Assault Forge Gun by 344HP. Though I should note that while most engagements (from my POV) take 1s for a volley to hit, that time can vary during engagements. However even if it did out-DPS the AFG, it wouldn't matter as it only has 50% of the AFG's range. Do I need to remind you that CPP's balancing methods involve Range scarifications over DPS (and vice versa)? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2970	Posted - 2014.11.03 19:21:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Tanks: If the fact that the redline was still alive and well, I'd be for giving it a range buff. But as it is, there are people who camp a rail installation in their red zone for the whole match doing nothing, with 12000 EHP might I add. \ 12K EHP is not possible for tank fits....even if it was it wouldn't be worth a damn. I was referring to rail installations. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
H0riz0n Unlimit Dead Man's Game RUST415 194	Posted - 2014.11.03 20:32:00 - [9] - Quote Agree on ADS part but also tanks need Cpu buff ( madrugar ) and the same for gunlogi, but this last one have no problem in fit cpu upgrade as madrugar. 3 slot are not so much , if you use a cpu upgrade you are driving a soma...not good Italian? No, i simply born in it, thats not a my fault. 2nd generation tanker. Strategy wins all. "We hate the dick"o7
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2456	Posted - 2014.11.04 01:36:00 - [10] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Did you know that swarms, factoring in reload times and all skills to 5 minus prof., have a higher sustained DPS than AFG? And that's not even factoring in better damage mods or either of the Minmmando's bonuses. Looking at the math: Quote: IAFG: 1500 Damage / 2.3s (2.25s Charge Time & .05s Travel Time) = 652.17 DPS IASL: 1248 Damage / 2.15s (1.05s Lock Time, 0.3s Fire Delay, & 1s Travel Time) = 580.46 DPS* If the travel time on the Swarms were 0s, than the Swarm Launcher would out DPS the Assault Forge Gun by 344HP. Though I should note that while most engagements (from my POV) take 1s for a volley to hit, that time can vary during engagements. However even if it did out-DPS the AFG, it wouldn't matter as it only has 50% of the AFG's range. Do I need to remind you that CPP's balancing methods involve Range scarifications over DPS (and vice versa)? First of all, both our maths are wrong: you didn't take in to account reload and travel time is an insignificant factor, usually only mattering as an ADS gets away (where a forge wouldn't even hit most the time) and I had a few numbers messed up, like apparently you don't get a 5% bonus to SL reload. Actual values are IAFG: 571.429 and WSL: 536.774. That's a 40 dps difference in favor of IAFGs. However, accounting for the Minmmando bonuses, that jumps to 684.12. In actual use, swarms have much more reliable damage application. Your first and second shots are pretty much guaranteed to hit, we don't know where you are half the time (from faulty damage indicators, invisible swarms, not rendering, and just being unable to follow the contrails in general), and with the DPS do down tanks on a single person, LAVs and DSs of all types need to gtfo or die. The point I'm making is that forges vs vehicles are balanced. They take a lot of skill to use and are very effective when used well. When fighting DSs, the FGs have the upper hand but with some fancy flying and more luck the DS can avoid damage and possibly fight back. With ground vehicles, forgers are limited by mobility and LAVs and tanks at a distance can still hope to avoid some damage. This isn't the case with swarms. WIth DSs, swarms have a virtually perfect damage application, with the only way to survive being to retreat (your only real chance in a DS is if you're right on top of them, at full health, know where they are, and are a good shot, as well as taking them by surprise, LAVs and tanks just try to snipe from a distance and behind cover). This isn't fun for either party: DSs have to retreat and try again while the Swarmer just sits by and fires a missile ever few minutes. I'd rather have a more "content filled" engagement, even if swarms have the upper hand. Changes like halving the targeting box, lowering tracking speed while targeting, breaking lock as soon as the vehicle isn't in, among others (perhaps not all at the same time), would really make AV/V engagements more interesting. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~



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