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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
135
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Posted - 2014.11.03 15:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:I run a Gallente scout, and on my proto suites I run 1 complex dampener, and a proto cloak if I can. I have a question. What incentive do I have in 1.9 to run a good cloak field? I can already hide from everything but 1 active scanner and Amarr scouts that run 2 precision mods without the cloak. In 1.9 cloaking negates the benefit of my 2 precision and 1 range mod by bringing me down to a 6.5 meter scan radius while cloaked (44m uncloaked). Being cloaked already impairs your hearing, and makes you defenseless, and now it negates your module effectiveness. Being cloaked is now a fairly detrimental state of being for little benefit, and you'd only want to do it for short periods of time, so why go proto? A basic gets the job done most of the time for cover-to-cover sprints, so is the only reason to use a good cloak to cover distances of 200 meters over open ground?
I am fine with cloak being nerfed, but 85% is a HUGE reduction in my opinion. Maybe 50-65% (Lets me still benefit from my investment into scanning range, which in turn let's me benefit from my investment in precision), or a strait reduction to 15m, or a tiered reduction, (85% basic, 75% enhanced, 65% proto) would work better. Enough to let me know if I am still being chased, or when it's safe to to decloak, or run away from the hack point. You could even still provide intel if you got uncomfortably close to your enemy (since they added a decloak delay). In 1.9, you are incentivized to not be cloaked as much possible. I, for one, would like there to be a reason to use higher grade cloak fields as all cloak fields will do in general in 1.9 is a be a tool for shotgun scouts to sprint up to you, or a tool to make a quick sprint between cover, and you don't need a good cloak field to do that. I want them to be used for stalking and scouting, because that's why I am a scout. It's the scout bonus, give me a reason to use it.
I wrote a play for the Dust Community.
Everyone: "Scouts are running around invisible dumping on everyone, please nerf scouts or give us some sort of hard counter."
Scouts: "USE YOUR EYES LOL ITS NOT HARD ROFLMAO DONT NERF SCOUTS WERE NOT OP."
CCP: "We're going to nerf cloaks so you cant use passive scans nearly as well while cloaked."
Scouts: "WTF WE CANT SEE EVERYONE ON SCANS CLOAK IS WORTHLESS."
Everyone: "..."
Everyone exits stage left, scouts cloak and exit in an unknown direction, only to come back a few seconds later to shotgun both everyone and CCP in the back, scoring one hit kills.
Andddd scene.
I guess now you get to use your eyes too you stupid asses. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
135
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 16:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Playing a sniper anywhere other than in the redline.
Oh look, a reason to proto up the cloak.
It took me less than a second to cook up.
Shall we go down the list I can cook up between now and getting home from work?
Oooh, Ooh, I can do this too, on a scout swarm launcher fit, cloak can help you evade infantry. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
137
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 16:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Playing a sniper anywhere other than in the redline.
Oh look, a reason to proto up the cloak.
It took me less than a second to cook up.
Shall we go down the list I can cook up between now and getting home from work? Oooh, Ooh, I can do this too, on a scout swarm launcher fit, cloak can help you evade infantry. I do this with my PLC scouts, and it won't help you evade infantry if you can't see them. Maybe with swarms as they don't own infantry like the PLC. It's also hard to use your ears to track tanks and dropships while cloaked. They love to hide behind things, and hearing where they went is the easiest way to track them down. Maybe to check the overhead map? Seems excessive to my fitting costs though. I can see the use of a cloak maybe, but not really the benefit of a proto one. Could you explain more? Why not RE's or a nanohive instead?
You can fit a nanohive in your second slot (which is pretty much required in a swarm suit). Im not sure I'd use a proto one, but I'd definately love to have an enhanced. I generally dont use cloak anyway since I think its horrifically abused by alot of people and I dont want to be a part of it, and Ive deleted my swarm fit because swarms suck ass and Ive moved on to forge guns, which suck slightly less ass.
Im not sure why you think cloaks wont help you evade infantry or will somehow prevent you from tracking vehicles... do you really need a dot on the scanner 24/7 or hear the vehicle to tell you where people and vehicles are?
I still use cloaks on my sniper fit for the same reason though, evading infantry or re-positioning over open ground. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
138
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 17:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Playing a sniper anywhere other than in the redline.
Oh look, a reason to proto up the cloak.
It took me less than a second to cook up.
Shall we go down the list I can cook up between now and getting home from work? Oooh, Ooh, I can do this too, on a scout swarm launcher fit, cloak can help you evade infantry. I do this with my PLC scouts, and it won't help you evade infantry if you can't see them. Maybe with swarms as they don't own infantry like the PLC. It's also hard to use your ears to track tanks and dropships while cloaked. They love to hide behind things, and hearing where they went is the easiest way to track them down. Maybe to check the overhead map? Seems excessive to my fitting costs though. I can see the use of a cloak maybe, but not really the benefit of a proto one. Could you explain more? Why not RE's or a nanohive instead? You can fit a nanohive in your second slot (which is pretty much required in a swarm suit). Im not sure I'd use a proto one, but I'd definately love to have an enhanced. I generally dont use cloak anyway since I think its horrifically abused by alot of people and I dont want to be a part of it, and Ive deleted my swarm fit because swarms suck ass and Ive moved on to forge guns, which suck slightly less ass. Im not sure why you think cloaks wont help you evade infantry or will somehow prevent you from tracking vehicles... do you really need a dot on the scanner 24/7 or hear the vehicle to tell you where people and vehicles are? I still use cloaks on my sniper fit for the same reason though, evading infantry or re-positioning over open ground. Not a dot on the radar. I use a headset, so I use sound to locate them. When I used to tank pre 1.7 that was the best way to find other vehicles. That and using the overhead map. When you cloak it muffles sounds, so it's hard to hear anything useful that isn't right on top of you.
Yes I know about the sound muffling, I just dont think its much of an issue. I find cloak to be very useful for swarm/sniper fit (and not in the "very useful at making it trivial to deliver 1 shot weapons at point blank range to people's asses" way that it is abused by most scouts using it), if it didnt help I'd fit uplinks or RE instead.
The point of this nerf is to make it a little harder for these shotgun douchebags to aquire/stalk targets while maintaining optical invisibility. I dont think this will fix how OP the cloak/damp/shotgun combo is, but it will help, and that is a good thing. The difference between a game with some cloaked shotgun shitstain in it and a game without is the difference between not fun and fun. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 18:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Playing a sniper anywhere other than in the redline.
Oh look, a reason to proto up the cloak.
It took me less than a second to cook up.
Shall we go down the list I can cook up between now and getting home from work? Fair point, though I'd argue that a sniper scout benefits little from having ewar. (I still do precision for my snipers, but I also stack plates and a cardiac for covering ground, as using dampening and range mods aren't worth it.) I did ask the question of why, so please do. That's the point of this topic, discussion. If there is a problem like I see, then we flesh out a solution, if there isn't, then we have ideas on how to use modules that had their usefulness adjusted.
Snipers benefit quite a bit from EWAR, equipping one precision and one range will let you know when any heavy/medium/undamped scouts are coming up to you so you can leave or RE them or whatever. I usually run (on Cal Scout): x2 shield extenders, x1 precision enhancer, x1 damage mod, x1 dampener, x1 range enhancer, gives you some good scanning to avoid problems and give you a comfort zone while zoomed in, and allows you to evade most scans which might make you a target otherwise. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 18:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Moving across open areas.
While actually scouting, flagging targets with your cursor to mark targets you want your squad to focus on instead of randomly attacking every red dot you happen to share.
Hiding from groups who move into your area.
Hiding from that burst HMG sentinel who is LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU and isn't firing because you're holding still and he doesn't see you.
Because sometimes you want to sneak past all eight of the red dots in front of you to kill the logi supporting the inevitable sentinel spammers.
Uplink clearing. Someone's gotta do it.
The vehicle scanner might spot you, but the gunner won't.
Dropship can't accurately drop missiles on you while you stand in the open giving him the finger between PLC shots trying to bounce him off buildings.
Decloaking only when you're ready to use your sniper rifle.
Because you can. And a proto cloak yields little advantage over a basic in most of those circumstances. they either rely on one or more people not seeing the shimmering in an extremely dangerous situations. Not saying people aren't blind, but any strategy that relies on you enemy to be unobservant/stupid it is risky, and one that relies on it for 40 seconds while you are blind and deaf probably needs reevaluation, or requires a mic which isn't fair to people without means, or who speak other languages. If you could tag a target, or put markers on locations without having to be squad leader, then it would be very different.(Looking at an enemy directly doesn't make them light up for your squad anymore, just you)
Its risky, but successful. The fact is using the cloak properly (not trying to walk directly in front of an unengaged enemy) is just astoundingly effective.
Im not sure how anyone can doubt that cloak field definitely provides a big advantage with both pubs and PC matches being absolutely infested with them.
And I'd say the enhanced cloak gives the best balance in terms of fitting cost vs. cloak time, the basic cloak is pretty short and you will notice the ticking clock alot more. Not sure I'd ever use proto cloak, but then again I havent tried it. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 18:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote: I tend to run 2 precision, but if cloak reduces my range to 5m, then I don't wanna use it for sniping, and should probably not run ewar if I do. That's the whole problem. Why use a cloak if doing so negates the 4 slots you invested in range/precision? If it is just in case, then you only need a basic (maybe sometimes advanced for very specific situations). It might be nice to have for the 1% of the time that the extra damping/duration might help, but you can free up a lot of fitting space buy just toning your cloak down. And I don't fit my suits for 1% situations.
The scanning EWAR mods arent for when you are repositioning or running away from a concrete threat, the scanning mods are for when you are sitting there, zoomed in, taking shots and your visibility/attention is taken away from your immediate surroundings. While you are sitting there sniping, you can see most of the threats that are entering your area and respond in some way besides having to respawn.
There seems to be the unspoken assertion in your posts that scouts should be cloaked the vast majority of their play time, and that being cloaked should carry no drawback. Not sure why you or anyone else would think this, but maybe its an indication of how spoiled the cloak is making you. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 19:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Moving across open areas.
While actually scouting, flagging targets with your cursor to mark targets you want your squad to focus on instead of randomly attacking every red dot you happen to share.
Hiding from groups who move into your area.
Hiding from that burst HMG sentinel who is LOOKING RIGHT AT YOU and isn't firing because you're holding still and he doesn't see you.
Because sometimes you want to sneak past all eight of the red dots in front of you to kill the logi supporting the inevitable sentinel spammers.
Uplink clearing. Someone's gotta do it.
The vehicle scanner might spot you, but the gunner won't.
Dropship can't accurately drop missiles on you while you stand in the open giving him the finger between PLC shots trying to bounce him off buildings.
Decloaking only when you're ready to use your sniper rifle.
Because you can. And a proto cloak yields little advantage over a basic in most of those circumstances. they either rely on one or more people not seeing the shimmering in an extremely dangerous situations. Not saying people aren't blind, but any strategy that relies on you enemy to be unobservant/stupid it is risky, and one that relies on it for 40 seconds while you are blind and deaf probably needs reevaluation, or requires a mic which isn't fair to people without means, or who speak other languages. If you could tag a target, or put markers on locations without having to be squad leader, then it would be very different.(Looking at an enemy directly doesn't make them light up for your squad anymore, just you) Its risky, but successful. The fact is using the cloak properly (not trying to walk directly in front of an unengaged enemy) is just astoundingly effective. Im not sure how anyone can doubt that cloak field definitely provides a big advantage with both pubs and PC matches being absolutely infested with them. And I'd say the enhanced cloak gives the best balance in terms of fitting cost vs. cloak time, the basic cloak is pretty short and you will notice the ticking clock alot more. Not sure I'd ever use proto cloak, but then again I havent tried it. Cloak works largely because while you are cloaked you can wait until the exact moment to strike, or you need to slip by someone for just a few seconds. When cloak changes tomorrow, then you either don't bother with a nice one, or you can use it on a suit with 800ehp because you didn't invest the high/low slots on something that you don't benefit from when you cloak. Is the thing I kept seeing topic after topic about have scouts are too good at slaying people not based in large HP totals and shotgun surprises? This changes nothing for them. But what the role is designed for (as that is what 3/4ths of scouts have a bonus to) is scanning, and using a piece of equipment that only scouts can use well, only to have it negate your bonus sounds like a terrible thing to invest more than minimally in.
I dont care about brick tank scouts, I think they are worthless in the larger scheme of things, they are scrubs who can be scanned and killed by just about anyone. You will rarely if ever see a brick scout running around in PC, and there is a reason for that, they suck. My problem with scouts lies with the fact that dampeners + cloak has no counter in this game and allows scouts to run around invisible, unscannable, one shotting people.
There isnt a counter for this style of play even after the nerf to the cloaking device, but the nerf does make the cloaks/damp combo less useful, because they will not be able to aquire/stalk targets as well while cloaked.
My preferred solution would be to change the scanning/dampening dynamic so that high level dampening will still not allow you to get within ~15-20m (distance debatable) of high level scanning without being picked up on scans, so that scanning can act as a counter to damps/cloaks. The way to make this change is to make scanning a gradient from the scanner, so that the more precision you have, the farther away things can be scanned at, and dampening on the scannee will push the distance back in towards the scanner. This not only provides a hard counter against damps/cloaks/shotguns, it also has the happy effect of making your precision/dampening mods useful regardless of what the enemy is doing. No matter what suit you or your enemy is using, dampeners will give you more room to work with, and precision/range will provide you more scanning radius.
But hey if they wont fix the E-war metagame, Ill take this cloak nerf, and anything else I can get. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 19:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote: I tend to run 2 precision, but if cloak reduces my range to 5m, then I don't wanna use it for sniping, and should probably not run ewar if I do. That's the whole problem. Why use a cloak if doing so negates the 4 slots you invested in range/precision? If it is just in case, then you only need a basic (maybe sometimes advanced for very specific situations). It might be nice to have for the 1% of the time that the extra damping/duration might help, but you can free up a lot of fitting space buy just toning your cloak down. And I don't fit my suits for 1% situations.
The scanning EWAR mods arent for when you are repositioning or running away from a concrete threat, the scanning mods are for when you are sitting there, zoomed in, taking shots and your visibility/attention is taken away from your immediate surroundings. While you are sitting there sniping, you can see most of the threats that are entering your area and respond in some way besides having to respawn. There seems to be the unspoken assertion in your posts that scouts should be cloaked the vast majority of their play time, and that being cloaked should carry no drawback. Not sure why you or anyone else would think this, but maybe its an indication of how spoiled the cloak is making you. My assertion is quite the opposite. My emphasis is that if your focus is ewar, then you shouldn't be cloaked ever, but when you my find a need, you only need to for <15 seconds when cloak has the huge drawback of ewar blindness. When ewar is up, I can hide in your blind spots. Lengthy cloak durations allow you to provide intel for risky recon far more effectively and easily. Assessing enemy numbers in a small building/corridor, giving scans to the squad leader of OB strikes, or scans for your main offensive so your main force can fight efficiently. You know, scouting. My point now is that if you can't do reconnaissance as effectively with it on as you do with it off, then there is no reason to use a better cloak, and more that it is the long cloak duration that allows you to do better recon. I can sit outside a small building and see red dots inside, but I can't see their suit rolls, or visually confirm scouts inside. I can give an okay strike location, but not one that is as guaranteed to kill all the enemies. I can sit behind my allies at the front and scan, but I can't see the whole of the enemy front and pick off stragglers from within their area. Active scanners do the scanning thing just fine for a squad (and soon to be entire team), but come with a warning that let's them know. A scout is supposed to see them without them knowing and provide intel, hence the ewar bonuses. The fun parts/useful parts of being a scout can be done from 100m away by any suit with a scanner, and the need for a scout to do actual recon will be much lower, and scouts can instead focus on being stealthy light assaults. That sounds like a boring game state to be a scout in, and it also sounds like an item in the game that has little reason for use over it's advanced counterpart, and that should not be the case for anything in the game.
*shrug*
Thats all your choice and your opinion, I still think cloaks are useful and I still think E-war fit scouts are useful, even when they are both on the same fit. We can always agree to disagree (with the understanding that you are wrong ) |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 19:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
CeeJ Mantis wrote: They are now, but come tomorrow, they won't be nearly as usefu. (and you can agree to disagree without being an *** about it)
Unfortunately I am me, so I cant. |
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Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 19:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Eruditus 920 wrote:CeeJ Mantis wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:PAHHHHH!!!!
*Shakes fist in anger!*
Real scouts dont use the stooooopid clackkalaka I keep hearing "real scouts (or logis from when slayer logis were popular) don't do X" What is a "real scout"? What for the matter is a "Real assault?" Or real "logi/commando/sentinel"? Ideally dust should allow for different fits to still be viable (though not necessarily optimal), and can make it work, you should be able to go for it. That's why you can make your own fits. If you us a commando with 2 off race weapons, then it should work (but it's not very optimal) If you use a sentinel with a light weapon, it should still work (also not optimal). If you want to help your team, but still fight on the front lines, then a logi can stack HP and damage mods, and heal/resupply people after the fight. It's a fitting, and our focus should be on fixing imbalances, not chastising people for not fitting their suits to yours standards. (For the record, I hate ALL of those fits I mentioned, and they annoy the greatly to fight them) When players talk of "real scouts" what they mean (and want) is a scout that doesn't kill them. A scout that kills you must be a "slayer scout" to the player who just got killed, even if that scout only goes 1-6. Every tool in this game is ultimately used for killing. CCP said exactly this in the 1.8 Dev blog in which the cloak was first introduced and the cloak animation was revealed.
Yeah, I agree with this.
Personally I think the whole "Real Scout" vs. "Slayer Scout" vs. "Whatever Scout" is a red herring.
In my opinion the scout's role is to feed his squad/team intel and be pretty stealthy. Unfortunately this is a game about warfare, so knowing everything and being hidden from everything gives you a massive advantage which makes scouts the best slayer fits (unless they run up against a big blob of heavies/logis where the # of eyes and amount of dps output just overwhelms even scouts).
My solution to this is to break the scouts immunity to the intel portion of the game, which means he can now be scanned if he gets close enough (see precision gradient crap earlier in thread that I posted). This means the scout is now vulnerable to scanning just like everyone else and removes one of the things that makes them such good slayers: 100% stealth.
And Im sure some people think scanning should lose against dampeners, but that kind of thinking results in what we have now, runaway slayer scouts that have no counter. Scanning HAS TO WIN OVER EVERYTHING otherwise there is no ability to balance. The question then becomes at what range the scanning wins.
Edit to add: I want scouts to be able to kill things just like everyone else can, but they should not be at a huge advantage over all suits as they are now. If an enemy squad has a dedicated scout or logi scanning then they should be basically immune to an enemy stealth scout as long as they are sticking together. This doesnt mean the enemy scout is useless, it just means that within the scanning area provided by the scout/logi, he cannot use stealth to gain the massive advantage they are able to get now. |
Vesta Opalus
Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment.
145
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 21:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Also, slayer scouts don't use cloaks. I barely use them outside of pubs, and then only to cover very very bright open areas of Anus Peak (yes I purposefully left out the "M").
When the cloak becomes more of a burden than a boon, all you'll see is 1. More RE spam because extra slot=Hive+Remotes 2. MUCH more tanking as eWAR will be useless 3. Minmitar scouts will die completely because they need the cloak for dampening 4. Amarr Scouts will only be kept around for shared passives for assaults and heavies 5. Gal Scout will be even more relatively FoTM versus other scouts 6. MUCH more tanking because of extra CPU/PG and no incentive to use eWAR 7. Everyone who respecs will go Assault 8. MUCH more tanking 9. Again, MUCH more tanking
I know, to nerf scouts that slay almost as well as assaults because they have high HP, we should nerf their eWAR!!??!!!!111!!!one!!!
Well I mean, I dont want to post in this thread all day, but this is just BS and I dont want anyone to accidently read this and assume its true because no one is calling it.
Starting with slayer scouts dont use cloaks and ending in "high HP" being the reason scouts are too good, every last letter of this post is horribly clueless. |
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