DUST Search - 1.9 cloak field

Aramis Madrigal wrote:

CeeJ Mantis wrote:

I can be a scout just fine. Have been since 1.1 when they were bad. I can lurk, and scan, and surprise JUST FINE without a cloak, and that is the point. I have no reason to use anything more than a basic one to give me brief seconds of invisibility. If I need to drop my cloak to scan, then I should just run a basic cloak.

My question was why spend the SP skilling into proto cloaks? Why spend the isk on proto cloaks? Why bother with the fitting cost of proto cloaks?

Currently there are incentives to being cloaked for a long duration. Proto cloaks add another tool to your arsenal because you can use them to sneak into heavily contested territory and provide intel to your squad like strike locations for orbitals. If you can't see, then there is no reason to put on a module that allows you to be deaf, defenseless and ewar blind for 40 seconds. I'm not gonna hack a point cloaked when I can't tell if someone spawned behind me or not. Cloak is fine, and your eyes are fine, but if you are better at scouting without cloak, and you are essentially an ewar blind, deafened, defenseless, and still fairly noticeable scout (because if you are hiding in your opponents blind spot then you don't need to be cloaked) while cloaked, then why bother with anything more than a basic cloak, or even use one at all?

I think there are two reason to use a proto cloak. The first is that it increases loiter time around an objective. If you're playing point defense/area denial, it allows you to stay in an over watch position for extended periods of time, while remaining invisible. In these types of situations, your eyes should be sufficient to detect incoming threats. Second, it is valuable if the cloak places you across certain dB thresholds or into the absolutely undetectable range. As a gal scout in PC, I often run two complex damps and a proto cloak. If I get scanned while uncloaked, but get a scan prevented message while cloaked, I know there is gal logi with a focused scanner . This is just one specific example, but with a couple combinations of dampening and cloak, you can parse your opponents passive and active scanning capabilities and tendencies in the first couple of minutes of a match and select your suits accordingly. If my opponent is too lazy to force me into using 2-3 complex damps, I'll use less and fit more tank and/or speed. All in all, I think the changes keep the cloak as a strong defensive tool, while removing a good deal of the offensive ability people have complained about.

-Aramis


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One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5371	Posted - 2014.11.03 16:16:00 - [1] - Quote This is what I have been saying!!! I don't think the players realize that this might not be as big of a nerf to slayer scouts (particularly if Active Scanning makes a significant comeback). This will largely hurt solo players, who won't have the benefits of shared squad scanning, and only team scanning, but will also hurt chaos makers and hackers who do not run in the packs. Active scanners will still allow well coordinated squads to run tanked, strafing scouts to "see" while cloaked, where as solo players who can only rely on team scans will be at a significant disadvantage. Also, scouts who spend a lot of time hacking, either solo or away from their squads, will be at a significant disadvantage, particularly when hacking CRUs under duress. What is more, MANY OF THE PROBLEMS THAT EXIST STILL WON'T BE FIXED!!!! And when you scout QQers start complaining that it is still a problem, you won't get any support from me because you had the chance to argue for appropriate fixes, and instead reveled in ham handed ones. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5374	Posted - 2014.11.03 16:19:00 - [2] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Wall hacks or virtual invisibility. Choose one. If Active Scans are too prevalent, slayer scouts will get both, while those of us who like to infiltrate or play solo and use the cloak defensively will be at a massive disadvantage. Problem not solved. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5374	Posted - 2014.11.03 16:24:00 - [3] - Quote Aramis Madrigal wrote: CeeJ Mantis wrote: I can be a scout just fine. Have been since 1.1 when they were bad. I can lurk, and scan, and surprise JUST FINE without a cloak, and that is the point. I have no reason to use anything more than a basic one to give me brief seconds of invisibility. If I need to drop my cloak to scan, then I should just run a basic cloak. My question was why spend the SP skilling into proto cloaks? Why spend the isk on proto cloaks? Why bother with the fitting cost of proto cloaks? Currently there are incentives to being cloaked for a long duration. Proto cloaks add another tool to your arsenal because you can use them to sneak into heavily contested territory and provide intel to your squad like strike locations for orbitals. If you can't see, then there is no reason to put on a module that allows you to be deaf, defenseless and ewar blind for 40 seconds. I'm not gonna hack a point cloaked when I can't tell if someone spawned behind me or not. Cloak is fine, and your eyes are fine, but if you are better at scouting without cloak, and you are essentially an ewar blind, deafened, defenseless, and still fairly noticeable scout (because if you are hiding in your opponents blind spot then you don't need to be cloaked) while cloaked, then why bother with anything more than a basic cloak, or even use one at all? I think there are two reason to use a proto cloak. The first is that it increases loiter time around an objective. If you're playing point defense/area denial, it allows you to stay in an over watch position for extended periods of time, while remaining invisible. In these types of situations, your eyes should be sufficient to detect incoming threats. Second, it is valuable if the cloak places you across certain dB thresholds or into the absolutely undetectable range. As a gal scout in PC, I often run two complex damps and a proto cloak. If I get scanned while uncloaked, but get a scan prevented message while cloaked, I know there is gal logi with a focused scanner . This is just one specific example, but with a couple combinations of dampening and cloak, you can parse your opponents passive and active scanning capabilities and tendencies in the first couple of minutes of a match and select your suits accordingly. If my opponent is too lazy to force me into using 2-3 complex damps, I'll use less and fit more tank and/or speed. All in all, I think the changes keep the cloak as a strong defensive tool, while removing a good deal of the offensive ability people have complained about. -Aramis This is part of the problem to me. First, it doesn't matter how "blind" you are if someone is hacking an objective. You will know exactly where they are without eyes, ears, or tacnet. Campers around objectives will still be at a significant advantage. Second, Gal scouts, once again, become the defacto choice for scouting because of the nerf to other suits. You can now run Damps to avoid tacnet while still maintaining the ability to share passive scans and run some tank. There is much more variability and viability of that racial suit than any of the others. Minja? Forget about it. Good luck with those hacks... 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5396	Posted - 2014.11.03 21:39:00 - [4] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Also, slayer scouts don't use cloaks. I barely use them outside of pubs, and then only to cover very very bright open areas of Anus Peak (yes I purposefully left out the "M"). When the cloak becomes more of a burden than a boon, all you'll see is 1. More RE spam because extra slot=Hive+Remotes 2. MUCH more tanking as eWAR will be useless 3. Minmitar scouts will die completely because they need the cloak for dampening 4. Amarr Scouts will only be kept around for shared passives for assaults and heavies 5. Gal Scout will be even more relatively FoTM versus other scouts 6. MUCH more tanking because of extra CPU/PG and no incentive to use eWAR 7. Everyone who respecs will go Assault 8. MUCH more tanking 9. Again, MUCH more tanking I know, to nerf scouts that slay almost as well as assaults because they have high HP, we should nerf their eWAR!!??!!!!111!!!one!!! Well I mean, I dont want to post in this thread all day, but this is just BS and I dont want anyone to accidently read this and assume its true because no one is calling it. Starting with slayer scouts dont use cloaks and ending in "high HP" being the reason scouts are too good, every last letter of this post is horribly clueless. If you think tanked scouts aren't a problem, then you are one of the few people who seem to be anti scout that thinks so. No 5 will very much be likely. Why? Because Gallente are the only suits that can beat whatever scans they want without the cloaks. This will result in them still being able to scan you passively and share that within squad, while fitting speed/armor/shields and still avoiding scans. Plus, they can use that extra EQ slot that would have had a cloak and steal some logi thunder. No 2, 6, 8, and 9 are all the same, and are possibilities dependent on Active Scanner conditions. Why? Because if EWAR is rendered obsolete from the changes, HP tanking will be the only recourse. A scanned scout is a dead scout, and if they want to increase viability while slaying, they will have no recourse but to tank. This may not come to pass should Active Scanning within game effectively replace passive EWAR scans. No 4 is hopefully an exaggeration, though given the fallout from the Alpha changes, I do have that fear. Much of what Minmatar do is hack and infiltrate. It does not rely solely on squads, but is the most Lone Wolf of scouts. I often use mine in enemy territory by myself, and survive because I know where the enemy is and how to avoid them. CRUs are a particular fear because even if I add a scanner to my fit, someone can spawn in after the fact and quickly gun me down mid hack. Hackers are vulnerable, and the defensive capabilities of the cloak have been neutered in addition to the offensive capabilities. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5396	Posted - 2014.11.03 21:44:00 - [5] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: The cloak nerf is barely an issue and they'll still be useable, just you can't be a jackass anymore with how you run around the maps. Not if the Active Scanners are a significant presence. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5399	Posted - 2014.11.03 22:46:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Lloyd Orfay wrote: The cloak nerf is barely an issue and they'll still be useable, just you can't be a jackass anymore with how you run around the maps. Not if the Active Scanners are a significant presence. the likelihood of this happening without an accidental return of the scannerinas is pretty low. You also have to take into account scans will be shared with teams now. Before, it was just with squad, so even if you had 1 scannerina, you would have to have at least one per squad. Now, depending on how things work, you could have multiple people with scanners for a whole team, and if they are logis carrying multiple scanners then all the worse. Plus, with ineffective passive scans while cloaked, some scouts will be inclined to use an active scanner, I know I am thinking about it. What Active Scanning will lack in scannerinas, it may make up with quantity. How likely that is to happen, I can't say, but I can see how it could very well happen. 1.9 Where cloaked scouts give way to tanked scouts. Problem solved?