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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3338
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Posted - 2014.10.31 20:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just look at the Google Doc if you can, it's easier on the eyes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SPwwz4niCixe_aWm2ZTh8CfZ7Z2NV2Q6bc7d3IUtxog/edit?usp=sharing
While many players will advocate simply removing Frame Suits, I believe that they can be used as a valuable teaching tool for newer players. A Frame Suit is the first suit a player will skill into, but the suit offers very little in terms of bonuses or an idea about what comes after. Frame suits should show a player a number of things, such as what kind of weapons that frame series uses, what tanking style works best for that race of suit, as well as what sort of playstyle they can expect from more specialized versions of the suit. This allows players to see what they should be training and what they should be fitting to best support that frame, race, and role. It also allows a new player to see if they like that style/race of suit before spending tons of SP leveling into a specialized suit.
Now we don't want to simply make copies of the specialized suit's bonuses, so let's consider what is going to help a new player the most. New players often suffer from a lack of fitting resources, either through the lack of Optimization skills or just a general lack of levels into Engineering/Electronics. We can incentivize a player to train and fit their suit a certain way by offering a reduction to the CPU/PG cost of certain items, simply because it will be easier to fit, particularly for newer players. A player should be able to simply look at the slot layout and bonuses a frame suit has, and gain a basic understanding of what to fit, and what the advanced suit will be used for. Please not that these bonuses only apply to the frame suit, and not the advanced specialty suits. This assures that the frame suit gets a unique bonuses that encourage a certain playstyle in a way which benefits players with low SP.
I will also advocate a slight change to the equipment for Frame Suits. Specifically giving Medium Frames 2 Equipment instead of 1, so that new players can do light Logistics work by having multiple equipment from the get-go. This also means that Logistics still gains equipment, while Assault gives one up. In addition the Heavy Frame should gain an equipment so it is in-line with the Commando, while the Sentinel must give up an equipment to gain its defensive perks.
Again note that all of these proposed changes have zero effect on specialty suits, so please leave your cries of "SP TAX!" at the door.
NOTE: Bonuses are per level
MEDIUM FRAMES
Caldari Medium Frames
+3% Reduction to Light Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Equipment PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Extender PG/CPU Cost
Gallente Medium Frames
+3% Reduction to Light Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Equipment PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Armor Repairer PG/CPU Cost
Amarr Medium Frames
+3% Reduction to Light Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Equipment PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Armor Plate PG/CPU Cost
Minmatar Medium Frames
+3% Reduction to Light Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Equipment PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Rechargers PG/CPU Cost
HEAVY FRAMES
Caldari Heavy Frame
+3% Reduction to Heavy Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Extender PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Regulator PG/CPU Cost
Gallente Heavy Frame
+3% Reduction to Heavy Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Armor Repairer PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Ferroscale Plate PG/CPU Cost
Amarr Heavy Frame
+3% Reduction to Heavy Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Armor Plate PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Reactive Plate PG/CPU Cost
Minmatar Heavy Frame
+3% Reduction to Heavy Weapon PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Extender PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Shield Rechargers PG/CPU Cost
LIGHT FRAMES
Caldari Light Frame
+3% Reduction to Kinetic Catalyzer PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Range Extenders PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Profile Dampeners PG/CPU Cost
Gallente Light Frame
+3% Reduction to Kinetic Catalyzer PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Precision Enhancer PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Profile Dampeners PG/CPU Cost
Amarr Light Frame
+3% Reduction to Kinetic Catalyzer PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Cardiac Regulator PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Precision Enhancer PG/CPU Cost
Minmatar Light Frame
+3% Reduction to Kinetic Catalyzer PG/CPU Cost
+3% Reduction to Nova Knife PG/CPU Cost
+5% Reduction to Codebreaker PG/CPU Cost
FRAME FITTING REWORK
Medium Frame
1 Light Weapon
1 Sidearm
1 Grenade
2 Equipment
Heavy Frame
1 Heavy Weapon
1 Sidearm
1 Grenade
1 Equipment
Light Frame
1 Light Weapon
1 Sidearm
1 Grenade
2 Equipment
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3343
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 22:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ahkhomi Cypher wrote:I love everything here except HMGs with equipment. Active Scanners with a HMG or even Rep Hives with a HMG will greatly effect the Heavy vs Med balancing. Heavy vs Light will still be situational but with HMGs needling other HMGs things are gonna get crazy.
That's a fair point, I'm not entirely set on the whole Heavy + Equipment concept, though I do have to insist on the 2 equipment for Mediums.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3344
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 00:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ahkhomi Cypher wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
That's a fair point, I'm not entirely set on the whole Heavy + Equipment concept, though I do have to insist on the 2 equipment for Mediums.
Yeah i actually like Med frames with 2 equipment slots. This change will give players the chance to do light logi work as you said. One thing I'd like to ask you is do you intend for Basic Frames to be a stepping stone to the specialized suits OR are they gonna be on equal ground as the specialized suits just not geared towards a certain task. If that makes any sense. The way it is now the med frames are split between assaults and logis and the basic frames are garbage. With a Basic frame buff they can actually be viewed as separate viable suits which would kinda fit in with how Dust treats weapons already. Lets pretend the AR and its variants are all balanced and stuff. The AR (basic frame) is good but sometimes a breach (assault suit) would be better for what your trying to do. Sometimes a Tac AR (logi) is better for your current situation but all three guns are "good". Or is the basic frame really meant to be a learning suit that is eventually abandoned for a specialized suit.
I'd like to create a system where a frame suit would be useful in certain situations because of its generalist nature, particularly in fitting. Like for example if you want to create a dropsuit to sprint around but don't particularly care about EWAR, you may want to use a Light Frame due to it's fitting reduction for kinkats.
In short I think the frame suits should be viable, particularly if you're going to be operating more solo. It's going to be less effective in a specific role, but able to be that jack of all trades master of none.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3346
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 08:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lloyd Orfay wrote:Dreams of basic suits with two equipment slots acting as a mock logistics some time ago, then sees this.
Yes.
However i'd have basic heavy frames act as commandos and have two light weapon slots, and commandos all need a long overdue eHP decrease.
Also, I'd decrease the SP amount for the basic skills by 10% or so.
Commando need a decrease in HP?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3346
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 17:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mouse BlackBlade wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Lloyd Orfay wrote:Dreams of basic suits with two equipment slots acting as a mock logistics some time ago, then sees this.
Yes.
However i'd have basic heavy frames act as commandos and have two light weapon slots, and commandos all need a long overdue eHP decrease.
Also, I'd decrease the SP amount for the basic skills by 10% or so. Commando need a decrease in HP? Nopenopenopenopenopenopenopenope
That's what I was thinking, if anything they need an increase in base HP or slots, I'd probably vote for the latter, but that's not really the topic of this thread anyways.
Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:Don't Caldari and Amarr Logistics suits both have only two equipment slots at the basic level? So specializing in this case will cause a decrease in health and speed, and possibly fitting capabilities(Amarr and Caldari Logistics have reduced PG and CPU respectively). The only thing Logistics suits would have that is better is scanning precision, and in that case you might as well use Light frames.
Heavy Frames with equipment would probably be okay, because sentinel suits still provide the incentive of extra hitpoints and resistances.
The light frame bonuses are nice, because I've never cared at all about the cloak, and the bonuses help with the reduced CPU of Light frames compared to Scout suits.
Overall, this is nice, and I would consider maxing out basic suits.
The point is more so that you can't really try out the Logistics role properly with a single equipment. New players need at least 2 so they can get a taste for that role. And besides, All Proto Logistics have 3-4 equipment slots anyways, so it's still more than the frames.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Tiericide frames.
Make the advantage of frames be cheap cost for lots of fitting slots.
There's no skill effects to cross check
Im not sure if you can properly tiericide Frames without tierciding the whole system. I mean I we saw what happened when CCP tried to tiericide vehicles but not AV. Could you elaborate on how you would go about doing this?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3346
|
Posted - 2014.11.02 01:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:i dont understand what youre talking about.
do you mean standard tech 1 frames? opposed to specialized tech 2 roles like assault and logi?
in eve the standards are supposed to have 2 bonuses, where the special stuff has 4+
(more coming into play as role bonuses, see heavy assault cruisers with the mwd bonus as example)
so i agree provided its done properly like how it would be in eve with regards to how the bonses are distributed among the skill levels pertaining to the suit.
I.e. 2 unique bonuses built into the standard suit that scale off the level of the standard suit operation.
then the assault suit specialization above it has 4 unique bonuses built into the suit where the first 2 scale based on the level of the suit operation and then the last 2 scale with the level of the assault suit operation skill.
and bonuses are tied into the suits like they are to ships in eve.
Yes I'm aware of how bonuses work in EVE. In this case however the bonuses of the Frame would not apply to the advanced specialty suits. In fact CCP will tell you that they consider Assault, Logi, ect. to be Tech 1, and that we never got Tech 2 suits. I suppose with this model you would consider Frames to be Tech 0 and thus not following that traditional EVE progression.
Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of how EVE does this, but at the same time I think attempting to add bonuses at this point that stacked from Frame to Specialty would be more of a balance headache than they're worth. Now if we wanted to add a proper Tech II to the suit progress, ie more specialized versions of the 5 archetypes we have now, that would probably be easier to implement.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3346
|
Posted - 2014.11.02 02:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ahkhomi Cypher wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Skullmiser Vulcansu wrote:Don't Caldari and Amarr Logistics suits both have only two equipment slots at the basic level? So specializing in this case will cause a decrease in health and speed, and possibly fitting capabilities(Amarr and Caldari Logistics have reduced PG and CPU respectively). The only thing Logistics suits would have that is better is scanning precision, and in that case you might as well use Light frames. The point is more so that you can't really try out the Logistics role properly with a single equipment. New players need at least 2 so they can get a taste for that role. And besides, All Proto Logistics have 3-4 equipment slots anyways, so it's still more than the frames. One fix I'd suggest for your proposal Pokey would be to not give basic frames a equipment reduction bonus but still give them a second equipment slot. That way new players can experiment with being a logi but without a fitting reduction they cant really run the good stuff. They'll NEED to skill logi to be able to do that. It also fixes (kinda) the problem of basic frames having the same amount of equipment slots as Amarr/Caldari logis because logis get a fitting reduction and equipment bonuses, basic frames wont. It'll also tone down a couple "slayer logi" fits that WILL be made. Just as a fyi tho. Proto Minmatar would have 5 highs 2 lows 2 WEAPONS 1 grenade 2 equipment and innate reps again. I think that suit with any meaningful fitting reduction is gonna be disgusting as will the other racial basic frames.
Well keep in mind that the fitting reduction bonus for the Frame would be less than the Logi itself, and would also not gain the benefit of the equipment racial bonus. So can it perform support abilities? Sure. Is it a true Logistics suit? Absolutely not. Besides I'd also advocate that the Logistics needs a much bigger reduction to the fitting cost of equipment, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Also all Logi suits end up with more than 2 equipment, so it's still an upgrade, even for Caldari and Amarr.
Also Slayer Logi phobia is ridiculous and overblow. As I said before, have a lesser fitting bonus to equipment, less equipment slots, and lacking in a racial equipment bonus does not make the frame a logi. Just how a lesser fitting bonus to light weapons, a lack of fitting bonus to grenades, and a lack of racial weapon support bonus does not make the frame an Assault suit. It's a little of both, less in a specific category.
So yes, the Proto Minmatar would have those things (though native reps are still crappy in comparison to real rep modules), but also be lacking in any strong bonuses in any particular category. Keep in mind the numbers I listed are really just preliminary to show that they're weaker than any sort of existing bonus, and I have not dived into specific fits/testing. Also remember that the goal here is the make the frame *viable* in all situations, but never *excel* in specific situations and rolls like a specialty suit can.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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