DUST Search - Adding variety to Dust (AV style)

True Adamance wrote:

Atiim wrote:

I think this is a terrible idea simply because it punishes players for working together. You know, that thing that almost every Pilot said Swarmers should be forced to do if they want a kill? Roll

Anyways, there's already plenty of reasons to invest into other AV weapons than Swarms, such as better efficiency against Shields, Anti-Infantry capabilities, better Alpha Damage, etc.

Not liking the fact that a lot of people use a weapon isn't justification for anything in the same sense that Gunnlogies being more popular than Madrugars isn't justification for a Gunnlogi nerf.

...

As for not seeing thoughts from Swarmers, I actually got into a discussion about things that Swarmers must think about when hunting a target. It's a bit long, but would you like me to paste it here?

Not really enough considering the only truly reliable and effective AV option for Anti-Shield Combat is the Plasma Cannon. There need to be a few options as Gunnlogi currently can effectively ignore almost all AV attempts barring High Tier Plasma Cannon.

EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.

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Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2941	Posted - 2014.10.30 20:18:00 - [1] - Quote After flying through a few matches and making my usual carol of sexual noises I usually make when I nearly get killed, I noticed a few things when having to deal with AV. What I noticed a nearly complete lack of variety when being engaged by enemy AV. In the 7 or so matches I played, I was able to get a decent gauge of the ratio of AV used to kill or attempt to kill me. Numbers I was able to count are as follows: Rail tank: 1 Rail installation: 2 in the red line. PLC: 1 Forge: 3 Swarms: 20 I've been known to exaggerate, but I'm not this time. These are the numbers I was able to count, there may have been more. The problem faced here is when using AV, there is no real reason to use anything but a swarm launcher against an ADS or tank. It locks on and fires for you. the most thought I've ever seen out of swarmers is either strafe/jump or grab a buddy. grabbing a friend to fight me is well and good, but when all you two have to do is lock on and release, it gets a little ridiculous. And why wouldn't they? There's no real incentive when tag teaming a tank or ADS to run anything but swarms, you have to try to miss. The thought then hit me after frantically trying to run away from four sets of militia swarms while singing my sexual carols. I don't know how I survived, but I did, and was able to notice one thing. All those swarms were flying in a very tight airspace close to each other, and there were plenty of them. As I saw it, and was doing my backwards flight move, I wondered, why don't those swarms collide with each other, they're a lot of them, and they're tightly packed in. So my thought is this. What if there was a chance of collision when swarmers shot in the same area? The collision penalty wouldn't be so bad that shooting said ADS or tank wouldn't pass the message of don't screw with us, but enough to where the AV users would have to do one of two things. 1) switch to a different AV weapon, thus adding more variety. 2) If 1 is simply too much to ask, then it would require the swarmers to position themselves better in order to get the full effect and kill said tank/ADS. Dust is a game where people have proven that they'll spam whatever is easy to get a win or a kill, case in point, laser rifle in open beta. This idea should, in theory, keep swarms alive, but force them to be more intelligent than lock on and release. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Atiim 13295	Posted - 2014.10.30 22:48:00 - [2] - Quote I think this is a terrible idea simply because it punishes players for working together. You know, that thing that almost every Pilot said Swarmers should be forced to do if they want a kill? Anyways, there's already plenty of reasons to invest into other AV weapons than Swarms, such as better efficiency against Shields, Anti-Infantry capabilities, better Alpha Damage, etc. Not liking the fact that a lot of people use a weapon isn't justification for anything in the same sense that Gunnlogies being more popular than Madrugars isn't justification for a Gunnlogi nerf. ... As for not seeing thoughts from Swarmers, I actually got into a discussion about things that Swarmers must think about when hunting a target. It's a bit long, but would you like me to paste it here? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13990	Posted - 2014.10.30 22:52:00 - [3] - Quote Atiim wrote: I think this is a terrible idea simply because it punishes players for working together. You know, that thing that almost every Pilot said Swarmers should be forced to do if they want a kill? Anyways, there's already plenty of reasons to invest into other AV weapons than Swarms, such as better efficiency against Shields, Anti-Infantry capabilities, better Alpha Damage, etc. Not liking the fact that a lot of people use a weapon isn't justification for anything in the same sense that Gunnlogies being more popular than Madrugars isn't justification for a Gunnlogi nerf. ... As for not seeing thoughts from Swarmers, I actually got into a discussion about things that Swarmers must think about when hunting a target. It's a bit long, but would you like me to paste it here? Not really enough considering the only truly reliable and effective AV option for Anti-Shield Combat is the Plasma Cannon. There need to be a few options as Gunnlogi currently can effectively ignore almost all AV attempts barring High Tier Plasma Cannon. GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Capital Punishment. 77	Posted - 2014.10.30 22:57:00 - [4] - Quote We'll have to see how the rendering optimisations help people I'm the ADS sees swarmers before I'd consider nerfing them. You never know just being able to see who's swarming you makes a large difference because then you can actually hit them with a missile before they've fired 2 volleys by which time you have to run away.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13992	Posted - 2014.10.30 23:45:00 - [5] - Quote TRULY ELITE wrote: We'll have to see how the rendering optimisations help people I'm the ADS sees swarmers before I'd consider nerfing them. You never know just being able to see who's swarming you makes a large difference because then you can actually hit them with a missile before they've fired 2 volleys by which time you have to run away. Oh rendering is a vehicle user's best friend. If you remember back in beta vehicle users suffered from being unable to see enemy players past 50m...... GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥ GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥ Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2941	Posted - 2014.10.31 01:47:00 - [6] - Quote i had to deleteyour post for room Atiim, on ps3. i did infact, say that you should use teamwork to kill vehicles, but it was AV in general i directed it to. but let me ask you this, did you particularly enjoy the tank spam of 1.7? did you enjoy the ADS spam of pre delta? did you enjoy the laser/heavy spam of open beta? most that were there despised it, including myself. on efficiency, the PLC isn't what you'd call a good AA weapon. i've got an idea for a PLC AA variant, but that is for another day. alpha damage doesn't really amount to much when all two swarms have to do is lock on and release and the job is done most of the time. people usually spam certain weapons for two reasons 1) ease of use 2) it gives you an easy kill swarms sure as hell fall under ease of use. if they didn't, why're they the most used AV weapon? my idea will not limit swarms killing potential, but it will require a certain degree of knowledge of your surroundings. i also want to see a bigger use of different AV weapons. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4236	Posted - 2014.10.31 07:13:00 - [7] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Atiim wrote: I think this is a terrible idea simply because it punishes players for working together. You know, that thing that almost every Pilot said Swarmers should be forced to do if they want a kill? Anyways, there's already plenty of reasons to invest into other AV weapons than Swarms, such as better efficiency against Shields, Anti-Infantry capabilities, better Alpha Damage, etc. Not liking the fact that a lot of people use a weapon isn't justification for anything in the same sense that Gunnlogies being more popular than Madrugars isn't justification for a Gunnlogi nerf. ... As for not seeing thoughts from Swarmers, I actually got into a discussion about things that Swarmers must think about when hunting a target. It's a bit long, but would you like me to paste it here? Not really enough considering the only truly reliable and effective AV option for Anti-Shield Combat is the Plasma Cannon. There need to be a few options as Gunnlogi currently can effectively ignore almost all AV attempts barring High Tier Plasma Cannon. You have no goddamn clue what you are talking about. I expect better evaluations from you Adamance and more realistic as well. Forge gun makes the PLC look like the idiot stepchild of AV killing gunnlogis. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1419	Posted - 2014.10.31 11:26:00 - [8] - Quote The issue here is there is no other AV options Forge - Must be used by a Heavy Swarms - Most suits first choice for AV Plasma - Vs a slow Gunnlogi = EZ, against a moving ADS its possible but hardly a viable option. Forge - can track someone at what.. about 300m?? and a lot of Forge snipers are accurate enough to do it So this is the best option for clearing vehicles, always has been and at PRO levels it murders BSC Vehicles Swarms - engagement range is short, but they track further so make a viable AV Point Defense Plasma - I've killed a few ADS with this, sometimes I try-hard and carry Lai Dai Sleek AV to catch them out It works but the situation usually goes like this .... - I fire Plasma round, shooting flares towards the pilot to share my location... - Pilot moves to engage, I jump about like a loon to dodge OHK off his missiles - I land a Plasma hit, toss an AV nade.... and watch the pilot fly away - Unlike the Swarm/Forge outside of 50m I can't do much other than launch flares - I wait with my gimped AV fitting, attempt 2, a good pilot will kill me during attempt 2 So the issue with AV is Forge (restricted to Heavies), Plasma (restricted to Morons) Leaving the Swarm as the only viable AV method for the majority of Infantry to deal with ADS Using Swarms rather than Plasma is similar to a Pilot opting for Missiles over a Blaster.. Sure you can kill someone, but as we all know it is rarely worth it to not choose EZ mode.. As with the Plasma in AV, or the Blaster in AI it is not worth wasting the time when you could use the EZ option Solution: Flares for the ADS to block Swarms tracking, this would need a long enough cooldown this along with some more AV options would be nice, and maybe change the Meta in ADS V AV Currently I do not blame anyone for swarm spamming, it is not just the EZ mode for Infantry AV, It is the only method for a medium/light suit to effectively kill enemy vehicles, thanks CCP Seen as I am currently speccing into my own ADS I will take this time to note : : FU dirty Rail HAV campers - It is painful how fast I lose an ADS to those
H0riz0n Unlimit Dead Man's Game RUST415 184	Posted - 2014.10.31 11:39:00 - [9] - Quote Git gud d1ck :D Italian? No, i simply born in it, thats not a my fault. 2nd generation tanker. Strategy wins all. "We hate the dick"o7
manboar thunder fist Dead Man's Game RUST415 187	Posted - 2014.10.31 12:57:00 - [10] - Quote d1ck if you were decent with a PLC maybe it wouldnt be so hard. NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life Delta- bye bye ads, bye bye scr
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 5734	Posted - 2014.10.31 13:37:00 - [11] - Quote Everyone gets a free Swarm Launcher class so if you have no real intention of investing in AV you might as well just use what is free. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1421	Posted - 2014.10.31 13:38:00 - [12] - Quote Wow.. I can feel the love thanks for adding a nice derail to the thread .. Scrubs As an ADS pilot with an overflowing tearbucket, I expected more of you manpig thunder fist
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2014.10.31 15:24:00 - [13] - Quote 1. Swarm launcher is already availible to everybody on the Anti Armor suit, it is the 1st AV weapon they use 1a. Since it is the 1st weapon they use chances are they will skill into it, espc if it is easy to use and does a decent job 1b. Because of the swarm mechanics of fire and forget this makes it easy for everyone to use because it requires very little from the user 1c. Also the SL has various problems which are in favour to the user 2. The idea itself isnt bad, many a time i do see swarms bunch up, if the missile touch each other i doubt they would bounce off each other like nothing happened since they are moving at speed and tend to blow up if they hit anything so it could easily apply to swarms Atiim wrote: I think this is a terrible idea simply because it punishes players for working together. You know, that thing that almost every Pilot said Swarmers should be forced to do if they want a kill? Anyways, there's already plenty of reasons to invest into other AV weapons than Swarms, such as better efficiency against Shields, Anti-Infantry capabilities, better Alpha Damage, etc. Not liking the fact that a lot of people use a weapon isn't justification for anything in the same sense that Gunnlogies being more popular than Madrugars isn't justification for a Gunnlogi nerf. ... As for not seeing thoughts from Swarmers, I actually got into a discussion about things that Swarmers must think about when hunting a target. It's a bit long, but would you like me to paste it here? 1. Currently swarm users have all the advantages when fighting vehicles 1a. Invisible missiles 1b. Following around multiple corners 1c. No aim required 1d. Broken tracking 1e. Broken lock on mechanism 1f. AV user also not rendering at various distances 2. Other AV isnt used because 2a. FG requires aim 2b. PLC requires more aim than the FG but is less effective than the FG itself 2c. No one uses proxies 2d. Jihad jeep for lazy players who cant even be bothered to use the SL or are skilled into AV 3. Regarding teamwork 3a. Pilot stacking in the ADS was teamwork, 2 pilots working together, 1 generally flying and not shooting that much while 1 guns and shoots alot but AV didnt like that it may have taken 2 AV to take out the 2man vehicle, also required both pilots to have level 5 into the ADS for maximum ROF and also the ADS skill for the damage which is roughly 9mil SP 3b. In the majority of games i was happy to fly and let the gunner do the work, mainly because it was a second pair of eyes who may have been able to see the threat that is if it rendered 4. Regarding what 'swarmers do when hunting a vehicle' 4a. That applies to all AV weapons except other AV weapons require the user to have aim and timing if going for that perfect weakspot shot
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2942	Posted - 2014.10.31 19:10:00 - [14] - Quote @ atiim, the problem faced with AV is that when fighting ADS, I see no feasible reason for usage of the other forms of AV. Forges can miss, while it is true they get more damage, they also have a longer charge time than swarms lock on, and a fully skilled assault forge gets only 1 shot every 2.25 seconds, a fully skilled swarm takes about 1.05 seconds to lock and an extra .25 ish to release and travel, meaning for .35 seconds more, a swarm can get two volleys in before a forge gets two shots, and by the the time i'm in evasive maneuver mode, around the second shot forge, the chances of him hitting me are shockingly lower than that of the swarm. Against a forge or swarm, it takes me about 4 seconds (ballpark number) with full AB speed to get out of either of their effective lock range for swarm, and out of the range of forge. the next issue is the PLC. It packs a hell of a punch against a python, but he/she doesn't have that much range to work with, and his shot can be easily avoided after the second. while it has a faster travel time than swarms, it doesn't have the range it does. Swarms have a longer effective range than PLC, have a greater chance of connecting than the forge, and can put forth faster missiles than the PLC, all it has to sacrifice is some alpha damage. The way AV is now, you cannot deny that the swarm is the most used AV weapon period. If you don't like my idea of limitation, what's yours? Keep in mind that finding a way to make the other forms of AV used more feasible, while not completely neutering swarms, ADS or tanks in the process is what I was trying to go for. R&B gets more kinky with every album Still rocking ADS
H0riz0n Unlimit Dead Man's Game RUST415 189	Posted - 2014.10.31 23:36:00 - [15] - Quote Buff AV nerf vehicles, anyway Italian? No, i simply born in it, thats not a my fault. 2nd generation tanker. Strategy wins all. "We hate the dick"o7
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3267	Posted - 2014.11.01 03:49:00 - [16] - Quote Better idea, we fix the range on rails (while finding a new way to fix redline rails and their old land to air dominance), we make missiles lock on AV and bam know you got 2 new ways to fight dropships without any crazy changes Forges leave em how they are just increase their knock back supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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