DUST Search - Remove Vehicle Scanners From Game

Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote:

What purpose do Vehicle Scanners serve? When designing the game, why did CCP decide vehicles needed the ability to scan infantry?

The whole concept of vehicle scanners as it currently stands defies in game canon/ game balance design; i.e. the heavier the dropsuit the lower the scan capabilities. A heavy suit has terrible ewar for purpose of game balance!

What is a vehicle but an over glorified MEGA HEAVY dropsuit?

Following canon, vehicles should have the worst scanning capabilities of all. In fact, the only things they should be able to scan are other vehicles.
But yet they have ewar that trivializes those of the scout and proto active scanner:

80m range
35 db
360 radius
30 second duration.

Just that alone would be op on infantry. But now add:

20-50m/s speed
2k+ proxy ehp
extra super heavy weapon or three

Furthermore, active scanners were reduced to a snapshot for game balance; 360 degree scan was OP. Why is this not also true for vehicle scans?

What was their purpose, and how are vehicle scanners actually used? Trolling infantry is how. I give you the Drive-by HMG and Camping Tanker. A LAV allows an hmg sentinel to circumvent every negative feature built in to balance that dropsuit: it becomes not the slowest but fastest dropsuit; not the weakest but strongest scans. And tanks that can scan everything in 80m but a dampened scout and sit and camp-kill hapless infantry run rampant throughout the game.

The only vehicle that I can concede to having scans is the dropship; wise pilots need to know they are not transporting their teammates into a nest of enemies. Yet even the dropship camps infantry,scanning enemies and raining missiles from above.

TLDR: I argue that vehicle scanners add little and are detrimental to the game. To quickly and easily bring balance to vehicle vs infantry combat vehicle scanners should be removed from the game (with the possible exception of the dropship). If vehicles want to hunt infantry they must have a visual on the target. This will shift teir focus to combating other vehicles. Or if not removed, they should be heavily nerfed. A nerf would be shorter duration or 360 snapshot, higher db (50db) and shorter range (15m). It could be possible to create modules to boost performance as dropsuits currently offer forcing them to sacrifice fitting slots to do so.

Commence flames.

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Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 368	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:17:00 - [1] - Quote What purpose do Vehicle Scanners serve? When designing the game, why did CCP decide vehicles needed the ability to scan infantry? The whole concept of vehicle scanners as it currently stands defies in game canon/ game balance design; i.e. the heavier the dropsuit the lower the scan capabilities. A heavy suit has terrible ewar for purpose of game balance! What is a vehicle but an over glorified MEGA HEAVY dropsuit? Following canon, vehicles should have the worst scanning capabilities of all. In fact, the only things they should be able to scan are other vehicles. But yet they have ewar that trivializes those of the scout and proto active scanner: 80m range 35 db 360 radius 30 second duration. Just that alone would be op on infantry. But now add: 20-50m/s speed 2k+ proxy ehp extra super heavy weapon or three Furthermore, active scanners were reduced to a snapshot for game balance; 360 degree scan was OP. Why is this not also true for vehicle scans? What was their purpose, and how are vehicle scanners actually used? Trolling infantry is how. I give you the Drive-by HMG and Camping Tanker. A LAV allows an hmg sentinel to circumvent every negative feature built in to balance that dropsuit: it becomes not the slowest but fastest dropsuit; not the weakest but strongest scans. And tanks that can scan everything in 80m but a dampened scout and sit and camp-kill hapless infantry run rampant throughout the game. The only vehicle that I can concede to having scans is the dropship; wise pilots need to know they are not transporting their teammates into a nest of enemies. Yet even the dropship camps infantry,scanning enemies and raining missiles from above. TLDR: I argue that vehicle scanners add little and are detrimental to the game. To quicly and easily bring balance to vehicle vs infantry combat vehicle scanners should be removed from the game (with the possible exception of the dropship) or be heavily nerfed. A nerf would be shorter duration or 360 snapshot, higher db (50db) and shorter range (15m). It could be possible to create modules to boost performance as dropsuits currently offer. Commence flames. AKA - StarVenger
Atiim 13192	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:21:00 - [2] - Quote I think all Scanners should be removed. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13863	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:35:00 - [3] - Quote Hmmm well vehicles are massive engines of war capable most likely of fitting a sensor suite significantly better than that of an infantry based dropsuit....... Still to be fair you won't find vehicle scanners on anything other than Maddy/Soma.....and those are so easy to put down its not even funny. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 369	Posted - 2014.10.28 01:56:00 - [4] - Quote Here's a true story: I'm behind a large wall with a CRU on the other side I want to hack. I near the break in the wall on my approach and just then I hear a lav and see its scan pulse through the solid barrier. A split second later an hmg who could not otherwise have scanned me, in a medium suit with damps 5, plods through the opening and mows me down in a quick burst. That's when I thought to write this thread. AKA - StarVenger
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2369	Posted - 2014.10.28 02:11:00 - [5] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: Here's a true story: I'm behind a large wall with a CRU on the other side I want to hack. I near the break in the wall on my approach and just then I hear a lav and see its scan pulse through the solid barrier. A split second later an hmg who could not otherwise have scanned me, in a medium suit with damps 5, plods through the opening and mows me down in a quick burst. That's when I thought to write this thread. QQ thread confirmed. Honestly that seems like exactly what he should have been doing, scouting out places and taking out sneaking targets. If he's just driving around everywhere, just get a swarm. He can't have too much ehp since he's using a scanner, I bet a few shots from a CBR either kills him or stops his joyride. Still though, I'm on the fence about this one. On one hand I actually want a buff to vehicle scanners. I think they should be better in one respect or another (not all together, perhaps increase the precision by tier or, preferably, by level and reduce the range to say, 30-40m). They should be more of a squad asset, defending a point with vehicle support. But then you get people who trounce around in Madrugars and, to a lesser degree, LAVs and just farm kills in pubs. Perhaps if, somehow, dropships and LAVs had some bonus or there was some way to limit their use on tanks. It would be neat if the Scout LAV got something for it, but really I'd rather have a more worthwhile bonus for it than just recon. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13865	Posted - 2014.10.28 02:28:00 - [6] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: But then you get people who trounce around in Madrugars and, to a lesser degree, LAVs and just farm kills in pubs. Sounds like the general premise of ambush. No tactics. No strategy. Just kill count. Or are you willing to say everyone on Scouts, Sentinels, Assaults are kill farming? "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2372	Posted - 2014.10.28 02:45:00 - [7] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: But then you get people who trounce around in Madrugars and, to a lesser degree, LAVs and just farm kills in pubs. Sounds like the general premise of ambush. No tactics. No strategy. Just kill count. Or are you willing to say everyone on Scouts, Sentinels, Assaults are kill farming? There's a difference between, "Killing as your role on the battlefield," and, "Killing for the sake of killing." A Madrugar that sticks with a squad or on a point is doing it's job, but when people just drive around without playing an objective or teammates, that's kill-farming, in my opinion. There's a lot of grey area here, and I won't lie and say I don't do that from time to time, that's just my opinion on the subject. I'd like to discourage that whenever and wherever possible. Ambush is a dumb gamemode most of the time. I rarely see any tactics or teamwork being implemented. It has its moments, but they're few and far between. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1146	Posted - 2014.10.28 03:50:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Hmmm well vehicles are massive engines of war capable most likely of fitting a sensor suite significantly better than that of an infantry based dropsuit....... Still to be fair you won't find vehicle scanners on anything other than Maddy/Soma.....and those are so easy to put down its not even funny. Oh how naive you can be True Two complex scanners can be cycled indefinitely and with all that fitting room you get from not fitting tank, just throw some small rails and be Jihad immune! Amarrica! It's Not Safe to Swim.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 440	Posted - 2014.10.28 05:47:00 - [9] - Quote You seem to forget that they aswell display proxy's/remotes on the floor. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
DDx77 Kinsho Swords Caldari State 9	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:07:00 - [10] - Quote If he's just driving around everywhere, just get a swarm. He can't have too much ehp since he's using a scanner, I bet a few shots from a CBR either kills him or stops his joyride. Still though, I'm on the fence about this one. On one hand I actually want a buff to vehicle scanners. I think they should be better in one respect or another (not all together, perhaps increase the precision by tier or, preferably, by level and reduce the range to say, 30-40m). They should be more of a squad asset, defending a point with vehicle support. The OP just mentioned his opponent was in a tank with scanners so swarms will not work. Why? When he jumps out of the tank in hmg suit he will be killed faster than he was in his other suit. This has happened to me on more than one occasion when I would try to attack a tank with my scout swarm suit. So maybe a better suggestion is come equipped with Plc fit so you can do damage to the tank & when the heavy gets out you have a chance of killing him. Swarms are a mediocre one trick pony whereas infantry still need to respect you a little bit if they see a Plc - sorry off topic I do agree that vehicle scanners are very strong and combined with a good tanker and also a heavy suit there is very low risk of death and lots of opportunity to kill infantry

CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2177	Posted - 2014.10.28 15:12:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: I think all Scanners should be removed. Im only down with this if scanning is removed from scouts too. I could happily go back to chromosome days where the whole team shared line of sight spotting. Being a sneaky scout meant actually hiding...... But to be honest I am pretty content with the way things are moving so far and with 1.9. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 371	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:13:00 - [12] - Quote DDx77 wrote: The OP just mentioned his opponent was in a tank with scanners..... To be fair, I mentioned it was a lav; it was a drive-by hmg in a jeep with scanner. AKA - StarVenger
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 13891	Posted - 2014.10.28 21:21:00 - [13] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: True Adamance wrote: Hmmm well vehicles are massive engines of war capable most likely of fitting a sensor suite significantly better than that of an infantry based dropsuit....... Still to be fair you won't find vehicle scanners on anything other than Maddy/Soma.....and those are so easy to put down its not even funny. Oh how naive you can be True Two complex scanners can be cycled indefinitely and with all that fitting room you get from not fitting tank, just throw some small rails and be Jihad immune! Considering Jihading is a **** poor mechanic I have no sympathies for them nor is perma sensor enough to stop a Gunlogi. Regardless good luck finding 2 players willing to spend all of their time on a small turret. "We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 400	Posted - 2014.10.28 22:30:00 - [14] - Quote I actually disagree with this entirely and feel that if anything there should be a vehicle-based scanner that detects super low, like 10db on up. In the context of your pub story, you knew you were being detected probably almost as soon as the scanner saw you, Heard the LAV and scanner pull up, why you didn't seek to evade/ambush is for you to decide. Also, vehicle scanners are easily found (pro hint:they're the ones on vehicles), and with a couple AV nades/REs/ a PLC/PEs or even the ol' HS the driver/gunner, easily neutralized. INB4BS- Once you exit the vehicle tacnet stops displaying targets on your minimap, and the HUD after a few seconds. ie You cannot pull an LAV, turn on the scanner and exit the vehicle chasing scanned people. Once you're out of the car for a few seconds you lose the reception of the scandata. It used to work (setting a vehicle scanner on and then just running after the scanned) but not for quite a while now. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 371	Posted - 2014.10.28 23:41:00 - [15] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ...there should be a vehicle-based scanner that detects super low, like 10db on up. Why? So that even a fully dampened cloaked scout can not evade a drive-by hmg? (Those pesky scouts with swarms!) Or so a tanker can spot the same before he can lay his REs on it? Why else would you need 10db scans? You only prove more my point. AKA - StarVenger
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 401	Posted - 2014.10.29 00:07:00 - [16] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ...there should be a vehicle-based scanner that detects super low, like 10db on up. Why? So that even a fully dampened cloaked scout can not evade a drive-by hmg? (Those pesky scouts with swarms!) Or so a tanker can spot the same before he can lay his REs on it? Why else would you need 10db scans? You only prove more my point. Yes, as an easily counterable element of the total EWAR conditions we work in. Don't forget, there are a ton of areas inaccessible to vehicles, vehicles are ALL vulnerable to some sort of AV, and if you're a scout stealthing you generally should be more than prepared to evade (actually evade, like scout-style, not just be sensor invisible) any threat at any time. The SP investment (a vehicle and scanner) could be evenly balanced cost-wise against the suit SP investment , making it even more balanced. Hell, to even deploy the damn thing would take calling in an RDV, which is just one more opportunity for our Recon and Infiltration expert players to Recon and Neutralize the threat. OR, they can just let that heavy drive right up. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meisterjager Jagermeister Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 371	Posted - 2014.10.29 02:11:00 - [17] - Quote Well, having just read the Uprising 1.9 Dev blog, it would seem this thread is moot for the foreseeable future. Hopefully being able to detect vehicles at the same 80m they are able to scan infantry at will mitigate their effectiveness. AKA - StarVenger
Bahirae Serugiusu Vendetta Reactionary Force 215	Posted - 2014.10.29 03:23:00 - [18] - Quote In all honestly even a militia Dropship with a scanner will be useful with 1.9 I think and why not? If you have a tank with one then you are down one useful 24/7 mod for a situational thing. Theres always money in the banana stand.
Dremel wp Shadow Company HQ Lokun Listamenn 48	Posted - 2014.10.29 03:28:00 - [19] - Quote This was an unpleasant surprise today. Couldn't understand why I was getting scanned in medium suits with damp 5/ enhanced damp.
Mobius Wyvern Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 5355	Posted - 2014.10.29 03:45:00 - [20] - Quote Meisterjager Jagermeister wrote: What purpose do Vehicle Scanners serve? When designing the game, why did CCP decide vehicles needed the ability to scan infantry? The whole concept of vehicle scanners as it currently stands defies in game canon/ game balance design; i.e. the heavier the dropsuit the lower the scan capabilities. A heavy suit has terrible ewar for purpose of game balance! What is a vehicle but an over glorified MEGA HEAVY dropsuit? Following canon, vehicles should have the worst scanning capabilities of all. In fact, the only things they should be able to scan are other vehicles. But yet they have ewar that trivializes those of the scout and proto active scanner: 80m range 35 db 360 radius 30 second duration. Just that alone would be op on infantry. But now add: 20-50m/s speed 2k+ proxy ehp extra super heavy weapon or three Furthermore, active scanners were reduced to a snapshot for game balance; 360 degree scan was OP. Why is this not also true for vehicle scans? What was their purpose, and how are vehicle scanners actually used? Trolling infantry is how. I give you the Drive-by HMG and Camping Tanker. A LAV allows an hmg sentinel to circumvent every negative feature built in to balance that dropsuit: it becomes not the slowest but fastest dropsuit; not the weakest but strongest scans. And tanks that can scan everything in 80m but a dampened scout and sit and camp-kill hapless infantry run rampant throughout the game. The only vehicle that I can concede to having scans is the dropship; wise pilots need to know they are not transporting their teammates into a nest of enemies. Yet even the dropship camps infantry,scanning enemies and raining missiles from above. TLDR: I argue that vehicle scanners add little and are detrimental to the game. To quickly and easily bring balance to vehicle vs infantry combat vehicle scanners should be removed from the game (with the possible exception of the dropship). If vehicles want to hunt infantry they must have a visual on the target. This will shift teir focus to combating other vehicles. Or if not removed, they should be heavily nerfed. A nerf would be shorter duration or 360 snapshot, higher db (50db) and shorter range (15m). It could be possible to create modules to boost performance as dropsuits currently offer forcing them to sacrifice fitting slots to do so. Commence flames. I run Scanners on my Myrons and Pythons to ensure cheap Shotgun Scouts don't just run around farming my team. I also use them on my HAVs to ensure that I don't have people sticking remotes on me or getting into AV nade range without me catching them at it. However, the scanners have a long-ass cooldown and the extremely obvious visual effect of the scanner means anyone in the area knows when I can't see them and can run in and attempt a kill. No matter what kind of vehicle runs as Scanner, the only issue is it persisting when you get out of said vehicle. For example a Heavy driving up in an LAV, hitting the Scanner, then hunting down everyone in the area because they can't hide from his vehicle scans. Other than that, there is no problem with vehicle Scanners and you should really stop trying to say there is. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Lloyd Orfay Commando Perkone Caldari State 138	Posted - 2014.10.29 06:43:00 - [21] - Quote It may be better to make vehicle scanners a LAV exclusive module alongside making them to be less precise in scanning( just so they can't scan a well damped player) Just to put some better use for them. People that can't achieve greatness without exploitation don't deserve to exist. Enroll in scout erradication today.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1148	Posted - 2014.10.30 06:00:00 - [22] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Considering Jihading is a **** poor mechanic I have no sympathies for them nor is perma sensor enough to stop a Gunlogi. Regardless good luck finding 2 players willing to spend all of their time on a small turret. Always find people willing to, you get tons of WP and everyone's happy. Amarrica! It's Not Safe to Swim.


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