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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
25
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Posted - 2014.10.20 03:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:there was a time it was dominant but ccp then artificially slowed down the movement on mouse to be more on par with joypad
I've said it before- to you in fact- but KB/M has never been the dominant aim method in the entire history of DUST. Even back in Chromosome, when KB/M was at its absolute peak, the top players (like Regnym and 13ear) used a DS3, and not KB/M.
What actually happened was KB/M was gimped to no purpose because a bunch of illiterate 12-year-olds whined that they were being 'beaten' by a KB/M user when they were very simple outplayed.
@OP:
I find the KB/M to be... subpar, in DUST, even when compared to fairly rudimentary PC shooters. It's impossible to fly a derpship with KB/M, and an atrocious experience to try and tank using it. Infantry gameplay is pretty reasonable... unless of course you consider the constant "shotgun/CR/RE/knives" to the back from cloaky scouts that are freaking everywhere these days*.
I have been able to take advantage of the better turn sensitivity of the KB/M to try and fight back against people who are behind me, but it's very finicky. Part of this seems to be that there's a few reports and accounts that AA actually combines with the hitreg functions and makes KB/M less than reliable on that front. I haven't personally had a whole lot of issue with that though**.
On the whole though, I still prefer the KB/M to the DS3... unless I'm trying to fly derpships. Then the DS3 is blatantly superior. What can I say, the first proper shooter I ever played was Battlefield Vietnam on PC.
*I'm not kidding when I say that the constant "shotgun surprise from unscannable scout" made me quit trying to go for the officer Magsec. It became, quite frankly, too painful, unfun, and rage-inducing.
**Except for the odd occasion when I'm firing and my gun is producing all relevant effects... except there's no damage and the clip doesn't empty. Literally, this almost got me killed today, because some punk was able to deal damage to me, while my RR was producing all the fancy lights and sounds, but no damage, and no ammo expenditure. Of course, that might not be KB/M related... but I've never experienced it on the odd blue moon that I try (and generally fail) at using a DS3 for infantry. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2014.10.21 02:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
So I did some experimentation with my mouse and DUST. For reference, I use a Logitech G500s wired laser gaming mouse.
I used the relevant Logitech software to change the thumb buttons to be melee, weapon switch, and grenades. I then used it to change the polling rate to 125 Hz.
The difference was both immediate and very noticeable; before, while playing I used a 2000 dpi, 500 Hz poll rate settings- these were the default for the mouse. However, having changed to 125 Hz poll rate, it seems that 2000 dpi is just insanely sensitive- well past the point of controllability for myself, at the very least. Dialing down to the second default dpi setting (800 dpi) returned my sensitivity to about the same as I was used to before, but it felt significantly smoother and more responsive.
An initially unknown (and unusual) side effect, however, is that the in-game mouse sensitivity settings seem to have no effect. I dropped down to something like 30 sense (I previously had ~70/52 sensitivity), and I didn't see any change in the sensitivity and responsiveness... seems like setting your poll rate to be as close as possible to the default poll rate of the PS3 means you'll have to do all your sensitivity adjustments through dpi.
That being said, I feel like it's a definite improvement over before, and that's without getting to the fact that I (finally) set the thumb buttons to useful functions.
It does seem that poll rate has some impact on how well the mouse functions... but that's something we'll need to get some more data to actually figure out. At the very least, it does seem like getting your USB mouse's poll rate as close to 100 Hz as possible will see some performance benefit. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2014.10.21 03:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because framerate. Borderlands on PC, as long as you have good specs, will run very smoothly (I don't think I've ever had lag in either BL1/2). As such, the framerate is either stable, high, or both.
In DUST framerate is apparently inconsistent- and the only reason I say "apparently" is because I have never been able to tell the difference between different framerates unless it's blindingly obvious, like slideshow-level lag.
So any claim that "PC game that is also UE3 has fine mouse aiming" can easily be put down to the much better and more consistent framerate that a PC will tend to have with such a game... and as much as I hate to admit it, better optimization on the developers' end. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2014.10.21 23:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:TO ALL KB/M PLAYERS
So I did what someone suggested and tried playing the game at the reduced resolution, I think the lowest is like 570p or something like that. (At least that was lowest setting for HDMI connection)
Granted at this resolution on my screen, things look blurry and very pixelated but I did noticed something straight away. The framerate was vastly improved.
I played on that Gallente level that is notorious for lag and low framerates and lo and behold - the framerates stayed smooth and stable at this new crappy resolution. The biggest thing I noticed? KB/M actually felt a lot better. Not perfect by any means but the difference WAS very noticeable.
I hope to god that with 1.9 and improved performances that we can get solid smooth framerates @720p because I would actually be able to aim then. ^ This. It verifies that mouse is not hardware interrupt based, it is software based.
Which really just means that the "UE3 does KB/M badly" thing is true. However, it doesn't disprove in the slightest that getting your mouse's poll rate as close to 100 Hz as possible will improve mouse performance.
Fox Gaden wrote:So, if we ran the game on something a bit more powerful than a PS3, like say a PC, then we might get similar results at a better resolution?
That's not just a case of "maybe", so much as "ALL MY YES". Any UE3 game on PC demonstrates this very well- Borderlands 1/2, the Mass Effect series, UT3 itself; the higher and more consistent you can drive your framerate, the better your KB/M will respond in anything UE3 based.
Considering how the mouse works in DUST- while also keeping in mind the PS3's optimal poll rate issues- and that DUST is also a UE3 game, and then looking out how KB/M handles in UE3 games on PC, we can pretty much conclude that if the devs can drive the framerate higher, and keep it there on a consistent basis, then mouse performance in particular WILL improve. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
51
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Posted - 2014.10.24 22:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Likely cause: Acceleration parameter is not calibrated for different dropsuits' turn speed (and with modules).
I snipped down to just the relevant part. In case you didn't know, dropsuit turnspeeds were normalized somewhere between the end of open beta/Chrome and Uprising 1.3/1.4-ish. Also, it's never been proven that any module has an effect on turn speed. It hasn't necessarily been disproven, but as far as I know there is neither evidence for or against the possibility- at this point that contention is hearsay and guesswork.
Krightun wrote:Thank you all for posting,
According to some the polling rate limit is 100
My 'gaming' mouse does not go down to 100, only 125.
there is a difference after changing to 125, as others have said after lowering their polling rate.
Also snipped to the relevant bit- I just want to reinforce that, like you, my mouse only goes down to a poll rate of 125. There is, however, an enormous difference between a poll rate of 500 (the default on my own mouse) and 125 when plugged into the PS3; it's actually the case that I had to lower my dpi because otherwise the mouse was uncontrollably sensitive.
Raptor Princess wrote:I like my keyboard and mouse more than the controller. I find the controller too uncomfortable for me to use for any length of time, whereas I can play for hours using kb/m.
Using vehicles is a pain, but I'm getting better with being a gunner on a tank, although moving the turret is a pain.
It's good with a sniper rifle though. Often it'll pixel jump and the mouse doesn't seem to be staying still, but I get on much better than I did with the controller. I'm still trying to improve my KDR from the few weeks I played without my kb/m - I just couldn't hit anything!
But that might just be me being awkward :P
If there was one thing I would demand changed about the KB/M, it would be an improvement of vehicle controls. Dropships especially- I actually just completely gave up on trying to fly dropships with the KB/M, and so I just deal with using a DS3 for that. It hasn't been too difficult, in part because the DS3 is only pulled out when I feel the need to fly. Any other time, it's the KB/M.
I do agree that turret sensitivity feels weirdly sluggish. I don't think it's as bad on DS3, since the analog functionality means you just hold it in a direction and it keeps going that way, while with a mouse you have to actually pick it up and then move it around some to get a traverse.
And I absolutely know what it's like to not be able to hit anything when using a DS3. What I find amusing is I feel just fine using my X360 controller plugged into my PC to play Borderlands 1/2 or Crysis 1/2/Warhead. Even using a DS3 to play my other PS3 games like Uncharted and Crysis 3 I feel pretty comfortable. But DUST is almost unplayable without using a KB/M for myself.
Feels like CCP just needs to overhaul all the controls.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
54
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Posted - 2014.10.25 15:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
As far as tanks, if the mouse worked as you described it does in War Thunder, then that would be an enormous boon to KB/M users, and would really only put us on par with the DS3.
For dropships, I think building the control scheme to work more like aircraft in UT3 did would be a pretty good start on refining it to the peculiarities of the DUSTy derpship.
Side note: War Thunder isn't the only game that supports that style of mouse control. Seems like it's a common thing in a number of flight-sim style games... I wonder why /DUN DUN DUN
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
62
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Posted - 2014.10.26 21:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Don't forget the bots and hacks that being on PC will bring.
Imagine your merc corp, sub-contracted to a major EVE alliance, loosing a trillion-ISK strategic nullsec battle because the other side brought better bots to the fight. Does that sound like a good thing to introduce to New Eden?
And if all these other AAA shooter companies find it impossible to control bots why should we expect CCP to?
You must be new here, because you obviously have no idea how fantastic CCP's track record is when it comes to getting rid of botters.
It's actually something of a thing in EVE, you know, the "mining bot". There's also the issue that a lot of the so-called "hacks" tend to have a greatly inflated prevalence.
Now, as to anything about how "mouse should be bad, because it gives xyz advantage"... I just love how the console peasants demand that the KB/M be bad /sarcasm.
I mean, it's not like KB/M guys make threads about nerfing the DS3 because it has abc advantage. Almost every KB/M user I've run into on the forums has generally been all-for fixing KB/M, and also feels that the DS3 should be good too. Do KB/M guys have a preoccupation with fixing the KB/M?
Absolutely they do, considering all the console peasants that are trying to make the KB/M the worst thing ever, when it's always been the case that all of the top-tier players use a DS3.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2014.10.27 01:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:New here since heading out to null in 2005.
CCP has been fighting those bots for a decade and they will never be done because their opponents will continue to evolve. But in DUST it won't be a case of botters making ISK mining, it'll be a case of code that gives a distinct tactical advantage, just like we see in BF and COD. And even if CCP bans peeps how do they roll back the results of important battles? The honest answer is that they can't.
As for the rest of your diatribe, i'm nominating you as the resident kb/m pyro given the number of strawmen you just put up and the torch you're waving around.
Well then, I apologize for demeaning your experience... however, mining bots are still a serious problem, since it actually turns into something potentially more serious than some dork who's "aimbotting"- that being RMT.
Moreover, just because CCP is in an eternal anti-bot/-cheat/-hack struggle, doesn't mean that nobody else is. Every other company has the same problem... it's just that, IMO, CCP has a much better track record than other companies. This is especially considering it is easier to automate a task in EVE than any other game, and yet CCP is very smoothly keeping botter populations in check.
Of course, there are still botters; unfortunately, that's just going to be a given. The man-hours required to purge every botting-use account, and then ban botter accounts as soon as is possible is simply too much for a company of CCP's size. Of course, it's also my opinion that there simply does not exist a company that could pull off a bot-free multiplayer game of any kind. But CCP seems very able to keep botters in check.
Moreover, it's likely that Legion will have much larger battles, that will consist of a theater of engagement with multiple districts under simultaneous assault; the truth is that the number of players who will have two or more of the following traits:
1. An interest in using third-party hacks/cheats;
2. The practical knowledge of where "trusted" sources of these hacks/cheats can be found;
3. The technical expertise to implement these on a PC system;
4. Be important/influential enough to actually matter in a battle; or
5. Be important/influential enough to convince other players in their player organization that these hacks/cheats are a good idea;
is not especially significant. For the record, I say "two" because numbers 4&5 are mutually exclusive; #5 could be a singular answer but still requires #1 (IE, you might have opportunity, but you still need motive to pin a guy).
Further, #4 is something of a paradox- if somebody has the sheer player skill that they can influence a single battle against a team of top-tier players who are working together, then that person by default would neither require nor have an interest in any artificial means of skill enhancement*.
Insofar as the pro-KB/M diatribe... all I can say is I played Chrome, when all control methods were equal (and top-tier players still used the DS3 anyways), and then we got Uprising, which for whatever reason was used to strangle the KB/M, despite there being no data present that a KB/M offered any tangible advantage for a player who is equally adept with a KB/M and DS3**.
*As I finished writing that I realized just how much that sounded like a Viagra commercial.
**The reason to use that turn of phrase is that any player who is well-practiced with one but not the other will produce invalid data for determining which one has an "advantage"; in my case I am well-practiced with the KB/M, but not the DS3, so if I were to attempt to play pure infantry with a DS3, there would be a massive performance drop on my end... but then performance would spike up to my previous "normal" when I switched back to the KB/M.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2014.10.27 02:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
That's an interesting take. I'm not going to out-and-out dispute it, but I would like to see some evidence of this in action- it just seems very strange, because I've never experienced anything close to AA in any PC shooter I've ever played.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2014.11.17 03:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
First off, the "noob" comment is completely uncalled for, and quite frankly indicates to me your general incompetence as a CPM member. Secondly, I was not specifically saying "Regnyam and 13ear only used DS3"- I was holding them up as examples of top-tier players who most likely used the DS3.
As for any claim regarding either of those players' actual preferred control input method, I will personally assume it was a DS3- as it was and is by far the most common input method used by DUST players- unless and until either one or both of them opt to share that.
Moreover, it's quite frankly undeniable that, at the very least, most of the top-tier players in DUST have historically and presently continue to use the DS3- it's what comes in the box, very few people actually realize that KB/M can be used in DUST, and using a KB/M is inconvenient for many people given that their PS3 is most likely connected to a TV.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
120
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Posted - 2014.11.17 03:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't think you understand- when I said that, I honestly had no idea whether or not either of those two used a DS3 or a KB/M. They were just the first names that came to mind when I thought "top-tier DUST player". That's all.
As far as the noob commenting... when it comes down to it, I consider your insulting of me, a member of the playerbase you are supposed to represent, to be an indication of incompetence because it indicates- to me- that you don't give a damn about the playerbase, and you just want to make DUST easymode for yourself.
When it comes down to it, I can't admit that I made something up when I never made any claim as to its veracity in the first place.
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