Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
23
   |
Posted - 2014.10.18 02:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
I just want to point out that the Huey/Apache comparison with derpships is fundamentally flawed, for the simple reason that the Apache can in no way transport any kind of passengers.
A more apt description would be the Mil Mi-24 Hind gunship, which is the nearest (and really only) equivalent to the ADS- a "fully" armed vehicle with a useful transport capability.
Yes yes, I realize that "useful transport capability" requires fitting the side turrets, but hey, even three guys is better than four, and if one of them can take potshots at things you may not be able to hit (or paying attention to), then that's a pretty good deal. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2014.10.18 05:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:I am not necessarily Comparing the ADS to the Apache. I called the ADS, and I quote: "some bastardized version of an attack helicopter and a transport one." Also, I am comparing the diverse and distinct roles of real life helicopters to the homogenized and indistinct roles of current DUST dropships. --> Vicious Minotaur wrote: Compare an Apache with the Huey. Note how different they are, and that our DS types are so damn similar. I never explicitly called the Apache the equivalent to the current flawed ADS. I am looking at general helicopter types, and the Apache/Mil MI-24 Hind are both fall under "Attack helicopter." (Assault dropship = Attack heli) My use of the Apache was only to personify a real attack helicopter and its very different armaments.
I just want to be clear, that by no means was I specifically referring to you. Rather, I wanted to point out that the general consensus- including CCP Rattati- was that the ADS is supposed to be some kind Apache. My intent was to point out that "Apache" and "Huey" are by no means the only choices; there is, in fact, the hybrid concept of the 'Hind' platform.
Certainly the purpose of the Hind is to be an attack helicopter, but it can also carry as many as eight people- that's slightly more than what the current, garden-variety Grimsnes/Myron can handle, and anywhere from 2-4 times what the ADS can carry (depending on turret configuration, or lack thereof).
Alena Ventrallis wrote:More to the point, many are saying that the ADS SHOULD act like an Apache, and lose the passenger seats for more attack and defensive power.
That's something I really disagree with, as a wannabe ADS pilot*. I really think that the Hind concept is something that almost nobody has ever done in a game, and that has a great deal of potential.
The ADS should sit at a nexus between more traditional dropships, and the eventual jets; an ADS would offer the transport capability and greater loiter time of a dropship, while still being more heavily armed in the style of a dedicated attack platform.
It's the sort of thing that then brings in strategy, tactics, choice, and consequences- if working as part of a group, do you want the larger transport capacity but inferior armament of a dropship, and/or the short loiter time and high lethality of a fighter, or do you pick the combination that's not quite as good at either job but also offers its own unique ability- that being the capability to loiter over a target area for a while**.
*There's two things that stop me from really getting into flying ADS's. First and foremost, the fact that KB/M controls for the dropships are the worst thing in the history of the universe (and I dislike controllers in general for vehicle-based gameplay), as well as the expense of flying- or rather replacing- an ADS.
**Traditional dropships can indeed loiter around, but they lack the firepower of an ADS. They do offer other potential advantages (like a constant stream of reinforcements via an mCRU) though. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2014.10.18 17:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vicious Minotaur wrote:I'd say that the term 'gunship' is more apt than 'attack helicopter' in the case of the Hind. (certainly both could apply... but that is unimportant).
True, the Hind is more accurately described as a "gunship".
Vicious Minotaur wrote:What is important is figuring out the various roles helicopters play, and transferring those roles to DUST. In DUST, there are different icons for aircraft sizes (light, medium, and heavy). The icons, for reference. I believe that the Huey is comparable to the current regular dropships, which are the light variey. We still need to fill the others (medium and heavy). The Apache, given its small-ish size, higher maneuverability and high firepower, could be translated to the role of an ADS and be classified as a medium aircraft.
I think you may be mistaken; dropships are actually medium aircraft (the slightly filled triangle; a video for reference; ~1:13, upper left corner shows the icon very well).
That being said, a dedicated attack aircraft would fit much more nicely as a "light" or a "heavy" vehicle; IMO it's likely that the light archetype would encompass dedicated fighter-analogues, fulfilling missions like air superiority and some ground attack, while the heavy platforms would be more comparable to bombers and large gunships- being generally slower, with either tremendous anti-ground firepower (bombers) or substantial durability and thus loiter time (gunships).
Vicious Minotaur wrote:The Hind, given its large size, lower comparative maneuverability, high armour, firepower and troop transport capabilities, would translate to a gunship, which would be a heavy aircraft.
There is absolutely no need to limit things based upon the way things currently are. It is not a matter of only having the regular DS and the ADS. There are more options.
Given the above, I'd say that the Apache informing what the ADS becomes is very much appropriate.
Well, consider that the likely analogue to an actual Apache would be a light aircraft, rather than the medium aircraft that dropships actually are (ref above video, which is from JudgeRhadamanthus' channel), it's very true that the ADS, as a Hind analogue, would be more durable, larger, tougher vehicle with troop transport that isn't as maneuverable, and, for balance reasons wouldn't have as much firepower.
Of course, this then leads us straight into the wall of "More Content SOON", so, there's that.
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The ADS does not act like the Apache, but my point is that it SHOULD. We have a transport DS, we need an attack one. Personally I think the ADS should be light aircraft, small and maneuverable with some firepower but very fragile.
But the point is, regardless of how we use it, CCP has never defined what the ADS, and all vehicles for that matter, are supposed to do. Imagine if there was a dropsuit that kind of had the tank of a sentinel and kind of the ewar of a scout. Too many hats means those hats are all too gimped to be worth it. ADS need one hat to wear, and in my opinion that role should be to attack. Like the Apache.
You mean there isn't such a dropsuit already? /eyeroll
As I comment above, the ADS is a medium aircraft, just like the current DS is. Quite frankly the ADS as a dedicated, only-does-one-thing attack platform is unappealing to me, and also seems like a step backwards. But again, as per my comments above, we have the issue of not actually having that lighter, more deadly and dedicated attack platform.
So we end up with an issue- IMO the ADS is likely going to be slated as a hybrid transport/attack platform in Legion, and if we change it up to be a dedicated attack chassis in DUST, any pilots who migrate to Legion will then be in for a pretty big shock.
The other issue, IMO, is that vehicles in general really just need another overhaul. The original design statement we got for 1.7 vehicles was really dropsuit-esque if you think about it; most capabillities- eHP, DPS, etc.- would have been determined by modules fitted (a lot like dropsuits) rather than base hull function.
Instead we got... well, what we got was the exact opposite of that. If vehicles had more slots (even just one more in the case of the ADS) there'd be a lot more capability to make vehicles specialized through fitting. This would require some turret variants, but it would accomplish specialization through player interaction.
I'd say that that would be far better than what we have now. |