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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13576
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Posted - 2014.10.15 21:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
I feel the same way about tanks. While I appreciate CCP's willingness to let me "play my way" (something not yet come to pass) I'd rather see vehicles have their roles like infantry suits.
From there anything beyond that role that we can achieve is much more satisfying....I mean in EVE every ship has a role, every variant a niche.
An Omen deals with Efficient capacitor management of Laser weapons A Maller deals with Armour Resistance Values and High EHP An Augoror/ Guardian mostly deals with Repairs and Logistics An Arbitrator is normally a Drone boat.
In Dust
A Soma has no specific role A Madrugar has no specific role A Sica has no specific role A Gunlogi has no specific role
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13577
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Now I will not disagree there does needs to be a root role or general idea of what is it supposed to do.
A sense of 'agency' if you will.
It would be confusing as heck if you gave me a full auto shotgun that fires slugs a role that could possibly interfere with heavy rifles. It is more confusing if you deploy a tank to a field and it doesn't feel like a tank at all. I mean back in the old day the general term of a tank (and to great extent even today) refers to any armored vehicle not just the more familiar MBTs.
So what sort of tanks do on the field and their purpose? There is not a good strong out outside of anti-vehicle role which overall it does poorly at against flying aircraft. With so few potential targets the HAV feels a bit roleless. MAVs could be the solution along with additional turret types and map obstacles that only heavier firepower can destroy such as search towers or gates allowing infantry to gain access to shortcuts that even the tank may not be able to utilize.
So back to the OP's concern about the ADS?
What role should it play? Verticality is an important factor and great advantage in this game but lately with the changes a sniper rifle is superior to discouraging roof play (though I never seen the previous ADS discourage rooftop play that much)
What would be the main role?
So far I seen alot of pilots ask for one way relationships. This very is unhealthy aspect and played into the previous ADS godhoo as the counter relationship is excruciatingly underclassed for the task.
However the relationship as it stands now is a simple one at best. There is no lockon signal, there is no targeting signal, players don't render that easily unless you hopped into the ADS as a sniper. (which is really kittened up part) Ground Infantry don't have deployable bubbles. The sound engine is not up to part allowing ADS to sneak up on them without a single audio queue, and ultimately sensors are screwed up. Vehicles are typically stealth in this game to a frustrating point.
I feel very strongly about the sense of "agency" as you put and and that is what I feel vehicles (HAV from my perspective) sorely lack.
And as you said "It is more confusing if you deploy a tank to a field and it doesn't feel like a tank at all." Which of course in Dust 514 they do not, not a single HAV feels like an HAV nor functions in the manners that we are familiar with, thus making them a very confusing and unsatisfying role to specialise in.
Contrary to what you believe I think HAV have too many options and need a redesignation of their primary role which should be "The definitive Anti Ground Vehicle Unit" one that carries the games largest ordinance in the forms of the Large Turret and proves to be the most deadly threat to Vehicles (this being the same for Emplacements....need more sting less EHP I feel).
The direct counter to these HAV with their slower movement speeds, slower turret tracking and turning speeds are infantry AV units whose manoeuvrability can now allow them to run circles around out of position HAV. HAV only counter to this it in the form of Small Turrets and secondary gunners who protect the Tank and its pilot.
You mentioned that maps could require specific targets and or obstacles that require heavier fire power to remove..... I think this is a very progressive and solid idea. Currently we have objective based game modes that cater specifically to infantry units, perhaps this could be opened up in future to Search and Destroy Objectives such as reactors, command centres, radar or weapons arrays. These being damageable by any weapons system in the game, but more so affected by AV weapons, Vehicles, and Remote Explosives.
That I feel would additionally open up and define the role of HAV. Especially if CCP takes a leaf out of SOV Structures, Deployable District Assets, Infrastructure Hubs for the various game modes.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13578
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Yeah right now our HAVs are a bastardization of a light armored fighting vehicle and MBT (though technically modern MBTs makes 'scout' tanks useless. )
For the sake of video games though
Medium Turrets Scout HAVs then shift our current HAVs into MBTs
Prior to the 1.7 Tankpocalypse I was actually working with two types of HAV.
The commonly established 6573 Armour Madrugar - 2x Hardners 1x Repper, and Heavy 180mm Polycrystaline Plating
and a 5015 Light Armoured Scout HAV with Passive Resistances, Duration Based Armour Repper, and Scanners.
The current over simplified system reduced the need for low EHP vehicles when I can have speed, armour, and firepower in one package.
I'd like to see a break down of Vehicles into
LAV- 1 or 2 man rapid terrain traversal units MAV- Larger, Better armoured Squad sized ground transport units which double as spawners/ mobile bunkers for engaging/supporting infantry HAV- Bigger, More Expensive, Greater Firepower for taking down Vehicles and Objectives.
As I see it the Cycle Should looks like
Match Begins * Team A launches LAV to reach objective X first *Team B responds with Armoured MAV to allow them to push Team A from Objective X *Team A calls in an HAV to pop the MAV * Team B responds with LAV mounted AV to destroy the HAV which is not mobile enough to react.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13578
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Posted - 2014.10.15 22:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:As far as tanks go, I disagree that they should be AV only. Let's be honest, what exactly is there for them to kill? If we had MAVs and jets and what have you, I'd understand having them be AV only, but as it stands, they have LAVs (laughably unused save for expendable transport) drop ships (which only rails and missiles truly threaten) and other tanks (which, if there are no vehicles, why call one out at all?)
I think large blasters should be reworked as AP large turret. However, the old blasters from 1.7 were (insert proper descriptor) OP. I would thus reduce their damage and reduce their max dispersion. In this way, they can now more easily attack infantry, while being more vulnerable to other tanks. But that's just me.
But I agree with True. All vehicles are just kind of here. They have no defined role beyond slaying.
They are not AV only units, they are primarily designated Vehicle Killers.
That is not to say that swatting infantry with a well placed explosive shell is not impossible, or that a Tank should not be modified to support a pilot controlled coaxial turret.....however I am suggesting that Tanks do what Tanks main guns were designed to do first and foremost, then engage infantry units secondly.
Because my suggestion relies of reduced turret tracking speeds I see no reason an HAV should not be able to switch to a fixed light turret mounted on the cuppola in the same manner infantry get a secondary wepaon. However this means forgoing your primary fire power for the duration of use, using a slow tracking low damage AI turrets, and compromising your fitting capacity by mounting a small turret.
I often do this anyway on my Missile HAV, switching out to a 20gj Railgun and popping infantry. I however see no reason to actually leave the main drivers seat to do this thought.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13578
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Posted - 2014.10.15 23:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:True Adamance wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:As far as tanks go, I disagree that they should be AV only. Let's be honest, what exactly is there for them to kill? If we had MAVs and jets and what have you, I'd understand having them be AV only, but as it stands, they have LAVs (laughably unused save for expendable transport) drop ships (which only rails and missiles truly threaten) and other tanks (which, if there are no vehicles, why call one out at all?)
I think large blasters should be reworked as AP large turret. However, the old blasters from 1.7 were (insert proper descriptor) OP. I would thus reduce their damage and reduce their max dispersion. In this way, they can now more easily attack infantry, while being more vulnerable to other tanks. But that's just me.
But I agree with True. All vehicles are just kind of here. They have no defined role beyond slaying. They are not AV only units, they are primarily designated Vehicle Killers. That is not to say that swatting infantry with a well placed explosive shell is not impossible, or that a Tank should not be modified to support a pilot controlled coaxial turret.....however I am suggesting that Tanks do what Tanks main guns were designed to do first and foremost, then engage infantry units secondly. Because my suggestion relies of reduced turret tracking speeds I see no reason an HAV should not be able to switch to a fixed light turret mounted on the cuppola in the same manner infantry get a secondary wepaon. However this means forgoing your primary fire power for the duration of use, using a slow tracking low damage AI turrets, and compromising your fitting capacity by mounting a small turret. I often do this anyway on my Missile HAV, switching out to a 20gj Railgun and popping infantry. I however see no reason to actually leave the main drivers seat to do this thought. I am all for this idea of a coaxial turret. My thoughts are only because there are next to no vehicles for tanks to destroy beyond each other, so having one that was better at AP would give missiles and rails an actual reason to go and kill it. As it stands its basically world of tanks with swarms and forges thrown into the mix.
And I like that idea, one reason I suggest that MAV take on a tough, highly armoured Anti Infantry role/ Squad support.
All tanks IMO should be single shot vehicles. Other AP vehicle options should be made available for those who like to hunt down infantry thus clearly defining the roles between Small Turret, Medium Turret, and Large Turrets.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13578
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Posted - 2014.10.15 23:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me clarify.
and ADS SHOULD NOT BE A BOMBER, FIGHTER, GUNSHIP, STRATEGIC BOMBER, OR ATTACK CHOPPER.
It should by all accounts be an assault dropship.
I don't know about that...... if the Dropship is the Blackhawk/Transport Copter sans missile pods, surely an Assault Dropship should be akin to an Apachi/ Attack Chopper right?
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13578
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Posted - 2014.10.15 23:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:True Adamance wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me clarify.
and ADS SHOULD NOT BE A BOMBER, FIGHTER, GUNSHIP, STRATEGIC BOMBER, OR ATTACK CHOPPER.
It should by all accounts be an assault dropship. I don't know about that...... if the Dropship is the Blackhawk/Transport Copter sans missile pods, surely an Assault Dropship should be akin to an Apachi/ Attack Chopper right? I am thinking more along the line so an armored and armed chinook. Would love RDV lift ability for Dropships. Assaults being hardy enough to carry an MAV or HAV maybe.
Does that mean another vehicles will have a role more akin to an Apachi...... I get the distinct feeling no one really wants to fly a Chinook when they could nab an attack chopper......
That being said Air Cav is an entertaining way to play.
OH CARRY MY TANK? YES PLEASE! ( I once wished that I could deploy my HAV from orbit)
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13581
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mex-0 wrote:
Actually, the role of tanks are to score easy kills off of fresh-out-of-the-acadamy scrubs, **** off the infantry, and generally wreak havoc.
This asshat............ is not even worth my time
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13582
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Posted - 2014.10.16 00:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Taurion Bruni wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Let me clarify.
and ADS SHOULD NOT BE A BOMBER, FIGHTER, GUNSHIP, STRATEGIC BOMBER, OR ATTACK CHOPPER.
It should by all accounts be an assault dropship. But this brings us back to the original argument; What is an Assault Dropship? the description of the Python given by ccp is as follows; Quote:The Dropship is a two-engine VTOL craft that combines advances in shielded hardware, redundant software protocols, and networked aeronautics into a heavily armored tactical platform capable of insertion and extraction in even the most hostile situations. Its standard five-man carrying capacity, dual hardpoints, and reinforced plating allow it to operate independently in any situation, alternately tracking and engaging enemy targets and ferrying troops into and out of harmGÇÖs way.
The Assault class is a low-level aerial attack craft. Its light frame makes it highly maneuverable, while the front-mounted pilot-controlled turret gives it a significant advantage in aerial engagements. from this, we get that a Dropship is made to be a "Heavily armored platform, capable of insertion and extraction in even the most hostile environments." I take this to mean that the standard dropship is meant to be slow, yet able to tank enough damage to support the squad as they attack a point. the ADS, by description is a faster transport vehicle, sacrificing seats for speed and a front turret. this allows it to easily cover the squad, but is more susceptible to damage. the front mounted turret allows it to have an advantage over standard dropships in engagements (although its hard to destroy a dropship with anything but a railgun) in theory, the ADS is still able to transport a squad, but its ability to tank is reduced to increase its ability to gank. Pre-Empryean Soldier Tech doesn't' stand a candle to our stuff. Our HMGs turns Sparrow Class Dropships into Swiss Cheese.
True dat. Our equipment is designed for 7' tall bioengineered super soldiers in ultra high tech combat armour and augumentations which would cause damage to other technologies not designed for our use.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
13584
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Posted - 2014.10.16 02:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:Apothecary Za'ki wrote: now if there was a scout craft.. like ads but no front gun but still as fast and agile but more silent and smaller signiture it may work
It'd be opppppppp doe cuz dat scount be up in dar doeee
Scouts are sissies.
"We were commanded to burn the system...We did. I mourn the loss of the innocents caught in our fires" -Kador Ouryon
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