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CCP Rattati wrote:

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.


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Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 214	Posted - 2014.10.07 21:30:00 - [1] - Quote Where to start? its nice to see a fresh face, and i remember your name from way back when. Well, vehicles have been going through some serious ups and downs lately. Basically CCP goes through the stats, finds a stat they dont like, nerf the item in question to within an inch of its life then promises to make it better Soon tm. I'm glad your having fun fun with vehicles in thier current state. All things vehicles are going to continually get tweaked so don't et to attached to anything. CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships. Let's state a few data points. 1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable. 2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly 3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor) 4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor) 3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind? 3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely. 4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf. Let's get to some more discussions. Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey. However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression. A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV. B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed. D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back. These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you? Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking. And dont offer Ratatti a ride, he takes it personally. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 216	Posted - 2014.10.08 10:21:00 - [2] - Quote Atiim wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Basically CCP goes through the stats, finds a stat they dont like, nerf the item in question to within an inch of its life then promises to make it better Soon tm. [....] False. CCP finds a stat which seems rediculos and/or out of hand, and then comes up with a multitude of solutions to the problem. After narrowing down what they see to be the best options, they bring them to the community. Sources: [Feedback] Commandos, Development Discussion Archives To the OP, how long have you been gone? Did you leave before Uprising 1.7? what part of your quote is not repeating exactly what i said. After they bring it to the community they generally carry on with whatever changes they already chose. The Logi equipment-specific bonus, Minmatar Logi hack bonus, Gallente scout range bonus, ROF nerf, Swarm buff, Caldari scout precision bonus.. there are a few examples of the feedback being taken seriously againt what the devs had in mind, the sucessful fight to save the ADS from disapearing completley in 1.7, saving the amarr logi sidearm. These are the exception rather than the rule. Its thier company, thier game and their paycheck so what CCP wants CCP gets. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.