DUST Search - [Feedback] Long range and Short range (graphs inside)

Apothecary Za'ki wrote:

BL4CKST4R wrote:

And yet again long range weapons are the dominant force in Dust 514, as we can see from the killfeed in this event the bolt pistol is the common weapon because range is > DPS currently, and yes the bolt pistol is amazing at CQC. Previously, we would also see the rail rifle very commonly in the killfeed, along with its neighbor the aCR and CR (but people want their event xp). But I dont think we should nerf the rail rifle, or CR, along with the bolt pistol or anything yet again. We need to figure out what is making them so powerful, even after so many nerfs.

Fortunately we, as well as CCP, know what is making it OP. They are to good at long range and to good at CQC. There are two solutions to this problem, we can increase the DPS gap between long range and short range weapons, or decrease the range gap between long range and short range weapons.

Currently the DPS difference between a RR and a AR is 11%, while the range gap is about 47%. As we all know Range > DPS because of how wide that gap is, the difference in DPS between the two is rather insignificant in many scenarios. But the DPS disadvantage of a long ranged weapon can be mitigated very easily, you can get the first shot, you can strafe like there are ants up your bum, or you could just fit a damage mod and increase the gap even further. But a short ranged weapon cannot mitigate for its short range, there are no mods, there is no skill involved to mitigate for it; simply put past its optimal range the damage drop off is so steep that just a mere 10M out you lose a significant portion of your damage, this cannot be compensated for at all.

You can imagine the DPS range gap like so

|--DPS--|
|----------Range-----------|

All ranges are in OPTIMAL meters, effective range is a terrible way to balance weapons, because short range weapons are useless past optimal range.

My suggestion is that we either bring up the weapons range as a formula of 1% DPS = 1.5M, which brings the AR to 54M, aCR to 60M, aSCR to 65M and RR and aRR stay up at 73M. This gives a CONSISTENT and linear correlation to the DPS/Range formula.

My other suggestion would be bring up the DPS to make up for the range gap, which would be 0.66% dps per M range.

AR= 479.2 - 40
aCR=452.8 - 50
aSCR=439.6 - 55
aRR=400 - 70

These are some graphs on the subject, as you can see the left graph has almost no linear correlation, while the right graph has a smooth linear correlation. The DPS figures above (0.66/1M) would essentially look the same as the range buff graph.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X9OdTavuT11a-Xy9N1utRreU1EkBk06dxPJQ8uKlI0o/edit?usp=sharing

On the matter of the bolt pistol, the bolt pistol is a very good gun. It is not that it is imbalanced but there is to much emphasis in DPS. DPS is not stronger than range, it just isnt. So the gap needs to be smaller. The only reason the Ion Pistol still doesn't suck is because the second buff it recieved reduced the DPS/Range gap which allows for the weapon to be competitive even if its shorter ranged.

a good proposal but i can still see RR being dominant just due to its range/accuracy

AR.. the breach and burst and tac need some more optimal /max range but give normal AR dps boost cause its a CQB weapon.
CR.. atm it feels bad.. the proficiancy skill needs to be applied to lowering the shield damage % penality and not to armor as its 15% armor anyway.. maybe introduce a slow fireing long range "artillary" projectile light weapon
ScR.. it pretty much dissappeared overnight when delta was released.. maybe damage buff for both assault and normal but HEAT PER SHOT on normal.. and heat per second on assault.
RR is still a problem.. with out nerfing damage under 20 meters (under the guns in eve terms) and keeping its damage at 21+ could be the only option.. ie.. 0-20m = 50%. less damage 21-50m = 100%. 51-60 75%. 61-70m = 50%


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BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3190	Posted - 2014.10.05 01:02:00 - [1] - Quote And yet again long range weapons are the dominant force in Dust 514, as we can see from the killfeed in this event the bolt pistol is the common weapon because range is > DPS currently, and yes the bolt pistol is amazing at CQC. Previously, we would also see the rail rifle every commonly in the killfeed, along with its neighbor the aCR and CR. But I dont think we should nerf the rail rifle, or CR, along with the bolt pistol yet again. We need to figure out what is making them so powerful, even after so many nerfs. Unfortunately we, as well as CCP, know what is making it OP. They are to good at long range and to good at CQC. There are two solutions to this problem, we can increase the DPS gap between long range and short range weapons, or decrease the range gap between long range and short range weapons. Currently the DPS difference between a RR and a AR is 11%, while the range gap is about 47%. As we all know Range > DPS because of how wide that gap is, the difference in DPS between the two is rather insignificant in many scenarios. But the DPS disadvantage of a long ranged weapon can be mitigated very easily, you can get the first shot, you can strafe like there are ants up your bum, or you could just fit a damage mod and increase the gap even further. But a short ranged weapon cannot mitigate for its short range, there are no mods, there is no skill involved to mitigate for it; simply put past its optimal range the damage drop off is so steep that just a mere 10M out you lose a significant portion of your damage, this cannot be compensated for at all. You can imagine the DPS range gap like so \|--DPS--\| \|----------Range-----------\| My suggestion is that we either bring up the weapons range as a formula of 1% DPS = 1.5M, which brings the AR to 54M, aCR to 57M, aSCR to 65M and RR and aRR stay up at 73M. This gives a CONSISTENT and linear increase to the DPS/Range gap. My other suggestion would be bring up the DPS to make up for the range gap, which would be 0.66% dps per M range. AR= 479.2 - 40 aCR=452.8 - 50 aSCR=439.6 - 55 aRR=400 - 70 These are some graphs on the subject, as you can see the left graph has almost no linear correlation, while the right graph has a smooth linear correlation. The DPS figures above (0.66/1M) would essentially look the same as the range buff graph. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X9OdTavuT11a-Xy9N1utRreU1EkBk06dxPJQ8uKlI0o/edit?usp=sharing supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3193	Posted - 2014.10.05 11:57:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: As usual, very well thought out. As I've said before, CCP really has undervalued range in the range vs DPS equation. When looking at your two balancing proposals I am left with a few of thoughts. I like the direct correlation you've created between range and DPS. It is clear, and emphasizes the worth of both values. I also like that this proposal would not change TTK or make any major change to how the game plays out. The second proposal I find less appealing because it would dramatically affect TTK. Yes, it does bring more balance to the weapons by equalizing DPS as per your equation, but I think it might create some imbalances by making the short range weapons too powerful. TLDR; Great stuff CCP should go with the range balance proposal. my favorite is the range graph, I am not a fan of buffing the dps even more, but if the dps continues to be buffed this is what it should look like so things don't become op/up. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3193	Posted - 2014.10.05 12:21:00 - [3] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: My biggest issue is that with your proposed numbers the DPS:Range difference seems way too high, I for some reason see assault rifle / combat rifle scouts being the new rage as they can reliably get to close range and destroy people. This is a problem with the nature of scouts themselves, doesnt matter if the weapon has 50 meters or 2 meters they will always get close and murder you. I.e Shotgun. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3193	Posted - 2014.10.05 14:38:00 - [4] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: And yet again long range weapons are the dominant force in Dust 514, as we can see from the killfeed in this event the bolt pistol is the common weapon because range is > DPS currently, and yes the bolt pistol is amazing at CQC. Previously, we would also see the rail rifle very commonly in the killfeed, along with its neighbor the aCR and CR (but people want their event xp). But I dont think we should nerf the rail rifle, or CR, along with the bolt pistol or anything yet again. We need to figure out what is making them so powerful, even after so many nerfs. Fortunately we, as well as CCP, know what is making it OP. They are to good at long range and to good at CQC. There are two solutions to this problem, we can increase the DPS gap between long range and short range weapons, or decrease the range gap between long range and short range weapons. Currently the DPS difference between a RR and a AR is 11%, while the range gap is about 47%. As we all know Range > DPS because of how wide that gap is, the difference in DPS between the two is rather insignificant in many scenarios. But the DPS disadvantage of a long ranged weapon can be mitigated very easily, you can get the first shot, you can strafe like there are ants up your bum, or you could just fit a damage mod and increase the gap even further. But a short ranged weapon cannot mitigate for its short range, there are no mods, there is no skill involved to mitigate for it; simply put past its optimal range the damage drop off is so steep that just a mere 10M out you lose a significant portion of your damage, this cannot be compensated for at all. You can imagine the DPS range gap like so \|--DPS--\| \|----------Range-----------\| All ranges are in OPTIMAL meters, effective range is a terrible way to balance weapons, because short range weapons are useless past optimal range. My suggestion is that we either bring up the weapons range as a formula of 1% DPS = 1.5M, which brings the AR to 54M, aCR to 60M, aSCR to 65M and RR and aRR stay up at 73M. This gives a CONSISTENT and linear correlation to the DPS/Range formula. My other suggestion would be bring up the DPS to make up for the range gap, which would be 0.66% dps per M range. AR= 479.2 - 40 aCR=452.8 - 50 aSCR=439.6 - 55 aRR=400 - 70 These are some graphs on the subject, as you can see the left graph has almost no linear correlation, while the right graph has a smooth linear correlation. The DPS figures above (0.66/1M) would essentially look the same as the range buff graph. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X9OdTavuT11a-Xy9N1utRreU1EkBk06dxPJQ8uKlI0o/edit?usp=sharing On the matter of the bolt pistol, the bolt pistol is a very good gun. It is not that it is imbalanced but there is to much emphasis in DPS. DPS is not stronger than range, it just isnt. So the gap needs to be smaller. The only reason the Ion Pistol still doesn't suck is because the second buff it recieved reduced the DPS/Range gap which allows for the weapon to be competitive even if its shorter ranged. a good proposal but i can still see RR being dominant just due to its range/accuracy AR.. the breach and burst and tac need some more optimal /max range but give normal AR dps boost cause its a CQB weapon. CR.. atm it feels bad.. the proficiancy skill needs to be applied to lowering the shield damage % penality and not to armor as its 15% armor anyway.. maybe introduce a slow fireing long range "artillary" projectile light weapon ScR.. it pretty much dissappeared overnight when delta was released.. maybe damage buff for both assault and normal but HEAT PER SHOT on normal.. and heat per second on assault. RR is still a problem.. with out nerfing damage under 20 meters (under the guns in eve terms) and keeping its damage at 21+ could be the only option.. ie.. 0-20m = 50%. less damage 21-50m = 100%. 51-60 75%. 61-70m = 50% Well I for one thing that the profiency skill should be 1% damage per level, rather than just 3% to armor/shields. This would eliminate that problem without affecting TTK. As for the ScR it's because its heat profile got all wonky, but fixing this should improve the weapon. I definately don't think it needs a damage buff just some tweaking in what is breaking it. I for one use it on some of my scout fits and it works relatively well, the rof nerf feels like a buff to me because the rof is much more consistent, I just don't like the heat profile now. the aSCR with the range buff I proposed, along with a change in the profiency skill it should become very effective. And lastly for the RR increasing its dispersion so it requires you to ADS in almost all engagements would push the weapon out of CQB. Without making it useless in CQB, a rail in EVE has a small change hitting another ship even if it's at extreme short distance (unless they have like no skill using rails). supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3201	Posted - 2014.10.07 07:06:00 - [5] - Quote cough supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3201	Posted - 2014.10.07 10:16:00 - [6] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: MINA Longstrike wrote: My biggest issue is that with your proposed numbers the DPS:Range difference seems way too high, I for some reason see assault rifle / combat rifle scouts being the new rage as they can reliably get to close range and destroy people. This is a problem with the nature of scouts themselves, doesn pt matter if the weapon has 50 meters or 2 meters they will always get close and murder you. I.e Shotgun. or they run in to a gall assult with a breach ar/ion pisotl or the assault rifle/ion pistol in general and end up dieing If the scout is the one dying most of the time in this scenario then the scout is doing it wrong, personally as long as I approach from behind regardless of the weapon by the time they react they are dead or close to dead. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious