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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
563
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Posted - 2014.10.02 21:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Im lvl 5 in gallente commando and caldari commando
i like a shotgun/AR combo with proxy scanner on the gallente and a rail rifle/sniper combo or rail rifle/ swarm launcher combo on the caldari commando
The shield stats on the caldari commando were intentionally desgined to nerf the suit. if you look at the shield stats of other commandos, theyre actually improved or equal to their racial assault suit. but the caldari commando is the only one thats made to be worse.
id like to see the commando damage bonus increased to 15% or extend the current damage and reload bonuses to racial sidearms
i know some people want more ammo or bigger clip sizes for a more suppressive role, but commanods have neither the HP to provided extended fire support while under fire, or good enough regen to get back into the fight.
the tight fitting requirements and limited module slot layout means each module slot must be maximized in terms of slot efficiency. we cant afford stacking penalties from multiple modules |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 06:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Specced I to Cal, Gal, and Min commandos.
First, we need to establish what commandos should do. Are they heavy assault? AV platforms? Until we give them a clear role, balancing them is moot. (I've played around with all Commandos, heavy focus on Gallente with moderate on Minmatar. I'll avoid writing a multi-paragraph segment bragging about how many things I have trained.) I fully agree that the Commando and Assault are largely redundant, and honestly in Legion they could combine most the bonuses/abilities into one suit and it would make a really solid role. But alas our bastard child that is the Commando exists, so we need to make due. I think it's fine that the Commando and Assault fill very similar roles, the important part is making each one fulfill a different facet of that role. I think first we need to determine what the role of the Assault is under existing mechanics. Once we've determined that, we can see what other facets of the role the Commando could fulfill, without overly compartmentalizing the Assault role. AssaultsModerate-High Mobility: Well suited for closing distances and moderate flanking. Weapon Support Bonuses: Offsets the weakness of Racial Weapons with Bonuses Moderate Base HP-High Slot Count: Flexible yet capable of Moderate-High HP when fitted. Medium Hitbox: Capable of relying on speed/hitbox to mitigate some incoming DPS Weapon Fitting Bonus: Able to fit Higher tiered Light Weapons and Grenades with less cost. So basically you have a role which is very mobile, and while not as quick as the scout, can still make use of less direct methods of getting from A to B. That is to say they are direct combat oriented, but not necessarily completely frontal assault. They are not necessarily maximum damage dealers, as they don't actually boost the damage output of the weapon. Instead, bonuses offset negative attributes of their racial weapons, which in turn makes each weapon more flexible and viable in suboptimal situations. In short, the Assault personifies direct but non-frontal combat, with a primary focus of flexibility and adaptability in the slaying role. Assaults are capable of putting focused DPS where it needs to go at the right time in order to get the job done cleanly. So now what we've defined what the Assault does, let's look at some things that it doesn't do and discuss how we can tie those concepts into defining what the Commando should do. Concepts to Consider and Discuss: Direct Frontal Attacking (Higher Defense - Lower Mobility) Maximum Damage Output (Bonuses to Damage) Sustained Damage Output (Bonuses to Reload) Quantity Over Quality (Suppression Abilities) Less Flexible - More Focused Role (Buff Strengths of Weapons) Additional Points of Contention: Little Incentive to use Prototype (Only 2 additional slots) and extremely Low Slot Count in general (2/3/4) when other suits have upwards of (4/6/8). Just as a starting measure the Commando should have the same slot layout as the Sentinels.
i'd like to see these added:
module efficacy bonuses tailored to each suit( minimal slots is fine if we get bonuses to the modules we use)
increased damage bonus to 15%
better and more of a focus on regen tanking
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 23:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Suppression without range is worthless. As I said before, at the ranges all weapons operate suppressive fire is meaningless. Advance and kill will always be the more meaningful choice. The only suppression weapon in the game that deserves the name is the laser rifle.
And your solution does not address the comparative worthlessness of the amarr commando compared to the amarr assault. The overheat will always mean thatt ammandos will always be less efficient combatants than amarr assault.
Making commandos into suppressors without giving them a range advantage will always be another bloody bandaid fix.
this is not true. amarr commando is the most efficient because it takes less rounds to kill with its scrambler rifle.
i agree with you though that the suppression role without a range bonus is flawed |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 08:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
all the commandos really needs are their module efficacy bonus back, which should be in addition to their current bonuses.
doing this will give us slightly more eHP than we have now and will widen the gap between assault suits with out stepping into sentinel eHP levels
and if we can fix the shields on caldari and minmatar the suits will be fine |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2014.10.06 01:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:I feel like break in has the perfect idea for commandos. The only thing I would change is to give caldari commandos a +5% to regulators and rrechargers as a bonus, as energizers count as rechargers for the purposes of calculating bonuses to those modules. Other than that, keep it exactly the same.
why not shield modules in general? |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
564
|
Posted - 2014.10.06 04:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:I feel like break in has the perfect idea for commandos. The only thing I would change is to give caldari commandos a +5% to regulators and rrechargers as a bonus, as energizers count as rechargers for the purposes of calculating bonuses to those modules. Other than that, keep it exactly the same. why not shield modules in general? Then we would easily reach shield levels rivaling or surpassing sentinels and we want to avoid that.
not 3% per level like they had before. if we keep the same slot layouts we'd be fine |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
567
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 11:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
what if we gave commandos passive scans? not as good as scout scans and cant be shared? buff scan range and precision base stats?
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
567
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 11:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I would suggest that the slot layout be normalized to sentinel. Trading the grenade slot for the equipment slot seems ok, and honestly grenades are gimped anyway. The PG/CPU might need to be a bit looser because there is no 25% fitting reduction for weapons on the commando.
Universal role bonus: +Damage to racial weapons. I'd go with 3% per level as 10% is more or less negligible as far as output goes.
Defensive bonus: Significant bonuses for recovery following racial themes. Gallente: Armor rep mods, Amarr: Plate speed penalty reduction, Minmatar: regulator bonus or on-board ammo nano-regeneration systems (slower than hives/supply depots, but perhaps 1 bullet per second per level, mass driver shells at a rate of 1 every 6 seconds minus 1 per level, same for swarms), Caldari: boost to recharger/energizer/regulator efficacy.
Offensive bonus: a unique attack bonus that will allow the suits to be used in sustained attacks This is where i think we should dip OUTSIDE normal racial thematics.
EG gallente might get a flat bonus to speed by incorporating minmatar movement tech.
Amarr might gain a bit of range by incorporating Caldari tech into their laser optics and targeting systems. (think long range suppression and counter-sniper)
Minmatar might gain a bonus to biotics and become even MORE obnoxiously fast attack to complement the gallente allies.
Caldari might seek to emulate amarr laser utility by deploying smaller, higher density ammunition allowing longer sustained fire and better battlefield longevity by carrying more rail ammunition.
i like that damage buff at least. but i dont need weird gimmics thrown on for the sake of being different. the suit needs to be functional. and it is already when played as offensive support.
the suit stats demand the player have high skills invested to make the best use of it. which is why the suit used to provide module efficacy bonuses.
the suit used to take whatever you invested into and multiply it. so you would run the best you could to make the most out of it. this is why a simple module efficacy bonus should be added, while tweaking base stats a bit.
commandos dont need to be flashy, they just need to get the job done, while rewarding player skill investment
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
568
|
Posted - 2014.10.10 05:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
give them high scan range and precision, so the commandos can see everything on a battlefield. dont make their passive scan shared. and give them terrible scan profiles so they cant hide.
this lets the class react to threats as they emerge, but its balanced by their inability to to use cloaks, dampen effectively, and their lack of mobility. |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
570
|
Posted - 2014.10.11 23:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Role suggestions along similar thematics:
Commandos should be able to fall into one of the four following depending on fit.
1: Shocktrooper. Mission is to locate, close with and destroy enemy hardpoints. This should include things such as breaking into areas heavily defended and being able to occupy sentinels while the assaults do the actual work.
2: Fire Support/Suppression: We all know how this works. Lob mass driver shells, laser rifles, PLC shells at enemy positions, etc. This includes counter-snipers. This is the AV blanket role.
3: assassin hunter: finding poorly damped single enemies who specialize in ambushes/knifing and killing them.
4: Saboteur: delivery of mines and remote explosives to enemy targets.
Honestly I think commandos are best rigged for raw damage, recovery and detection instead of raw HP.
The one thing I'm not wanting at all is more HP creep.
better ewar. vastly increase scan range and precision would make up for their lower HP and mobility.
and those scans would allow for effective use of indirect fire support. mass drivers, plasma cannons,
and better cqc using shotguns and passive scans.
detecting flanking troops.
i think everyone here can agree that being able have passive scan is more valuable than another slot or increased HP. you simply become more effective at everything |
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
571
|
Posted - 2014.10.12 02:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Role suggestions along similar thematics:
Commandos should be able to fall into one of the four following depending on fit.
1: Shocktrooper. Mission is to locate, close with and destroy enemy hardpoints. This should include things such as breaking into areas heavily defended and being able to occupy sentinels while the assaults do the actual work.
2: Fire Support/Suppression: We all know how this works. Lob mass driver shells, laser rifles, PLC shells at enemy positions, etc. This includes counter-snipers. This is the AV blanket role.
3: assassin hunter: finding poorly damped single enemies who specialize in ambushes/knifing and killing them.
4: Saboteur: delivery of mines and remote explosives to enemy targets.
Honestly I think commandos are best rigged for raw damage, recovery and detection instead of raw HP.
The one thing I'm not wanting at all is more HP creep. better ewar. vastly increase scan range and precision would make up for their lower HP and mobility. and those scans would allow for effective use of indirect fire support. mass drivers, plasma cannons, and better cqc using shotguns and passive scans. detecting flanking troops. i think everyone here can agree that being able have passive scan is more valuable than another slot or increased HP. you simply become more effective at everything and actually meets conditions of each role youve mentioned i would go for eithe the same base scans as scouts, or better because commandos dont have scout mobility. so id honestly would like to see commando base scan range at 50m and precision at 28dB Then they would creep on the Amarr and Caldari scout roles. Shocktrooper shouldn't be hunting. The scout should locate, and the assault should close with and destroy the enemy. Commandos should ensure that the enemy is unable toaneuver and keep the enemy pinned while the assaults close with and destroy. I would see their regen buffed exceedingly, an increase to their extra damage, and an extra slot with pg/CPU to match. They should hit hard, but move slow. They are better for standing in one area and shooting the enemy and keeping them pinned, while the assaults flank for the kill.
how? im pretty sure scouts are for infiltration, which they ALL excel at due to their scan profiles and cloaks. giving commandos better scan range and precision doesnt make them better than scouts at infiltration, especially since they dont have scout speed and mobility.
also, commando passive scan should not be squad shared. it meant for letting the commando see approaching enemies so he can react to them, by switching weapons or moving to a more tactical position. in order to be hunters, you need to also be fast, which not what these slow as snails commandos are.
when i run my gal commando, i run it with a shotgun and ar. my biggest issue with it is that i cant see enemies coming around corners or flanking me, where id want to switch and use my shotgun
when i use my caldari commando ill run a RR/swarm or RR/sniper fit. same thing here, i wish i had passive scan good enough to detect dudes running up to me when im giving my squad sniper cover. passive scan arent just helpful offensively, theyre just as useful defensively.
Breakin Stuff wrote:there is absolutely no point in giving commandos a scan range/precision bonus if fully range modded they can only detect just outside the tiny inner ring, and they cannot fit enough precision to catch an undamped scout.
that radar has a 120m range. the three rings correspond to 40 meter increments, the tiny ring is "under 20" Everyone who is not a calscout is pretty much limited to halfway between the tiny ring and the next ring at best.
wouldnt buffing the base scan range and precision to fix this? 15m is nothing , but 50m is most certainly viable along with precision strong enough to detect at least medium suits and possibly undampened scouts |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
607
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 12:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
Any chance we can get the damage bonus increases to 3 or 4% per level? |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
626
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 11:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Not changing PG/CPU to account for yhe new slots will exacerbate the problems with commandos. I've avoided altering PG/CPU values at this time due to the parity with Sentinel suits, since in some cases normalizing PG/CPU of Commandos to Sentinel levels would actually result in a reduction of the raw stats. I acknowledge that a fittings shift in PG/CPU has a significant likelihood of being called for but I would rather have game data to support that before recommending a change which would push Commando fittings levels beyond those of the - recently deemed to be too substantial and thus scaled down - values of the Sentinels who are sporting the same High/Low slot layouts.
hey man, commando suits are tight on fittings already. i cant think of anything i could put in that extra slot without more cpu/pg
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
626
|
Posted - 2014.11.01 12:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:DeathwindRising wrote: this also doesnt make commandos better regen tankers in the case of the cal commando, since its regen abilities are tied to its god awful base shield recharge and shield delays. the delays need to be cut to 2 second shield delay and 3 second depleted shield delay with a base shield recharge of 40 hp/s to be better than cal assault or cal sentinels at regen tanking
I'll do a side by side work up on comparative shield regen rates within the races, thank you for reminding me of that aspect, I apologize for the omission.
already done good sir
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12sLzo5L0z0h4ZtzlchycjfoQj5PSinbFVWbLzdVfLQw/edit?usp=sharing |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
633
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 06:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
here's a question, do we want commandos to be better regen tankers or the best regen tankers?
if we make them better, then we can put them in between scouts, but i dont think thats where we going with this since gal commando has the nest native armor regen.
so that said, are were going to change scouts at all, to make them less effective at regen tanking? cause then we can just switch the cal and min scout shield regen over the their respective commando suits. they would be the best shield regen suits, but not as mobile. this would be ok with me.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
639
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 11:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
native armor reps seem to be in a good place right now across commandos. they currently already have best native reps for their races. the new stats due for this tuesday will improve gallente native reps further. (5hp/s)
shield regen needs work.
(shield recharge, shield delay/depleted shield delay)
caldari: 40hp/s, 4/5
minmatar: 30hp/s, 5/6
gallente: 25hp/s, 6/8
amarr: 25hp/s, 6/8
increased stamina pool would certainly help with mobility and melee. its a good idea that id like to see happen.
when we do the ewar balancing, maybe we can get increased scan radius? it helps with being able to react to threats if we can get early warning of them. they dont need to be crazy, but maybe +5m would be ok? |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
639
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 11:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
apparently we can have more than two bonuses. so if and when we get to that, i think the best thing would to simply add a 3rd bonus to commandos instead of removing any current bonuses |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
639
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 17:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:No Cross, the commando damage bonusing needs another pass.
The DPS benefit over a similar assault is right around 2% given similar damage mods setups.
The Amarr Commando is of particular note in that it cannot compete with the assault AT ALL due to tge assault heat reduction.
People fixate on the commando damage bonus but all it does is allow offensive parity with assaults, not offensive superiority.
You see the most egregious example of this when people talk about the minmatar commando utilizing swarms.
A minmatar commando with two damage mods kills with explosives at the EXACT SAME number of shots as a triple modded assault suit. The damage bar seems to move faster, TTK does not change.
The amarr commando is particularly obnoxious in that it gets only one damage mod slot where the assault gets 3. The assault also gets up to 25% heat reduction. This means the commando has lower potential DPS per shot as well as suffering lower sustained fire time.
The damage bonus currently provides only a placebo effect, not an actual advantage. Until this is addressed in one form or another, or the commandos have a clear operational advantage that cannot be negated by a standard assault fit then the class will not be balanced.
give them an additional 1% per level to rate of fire
edit: give amarr, 3% reduction to heat build up per level instead of an additional rof bonus |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance
640
|
Posted - 2014.11.09 05:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:No Cross, the commando damage bonusing needs another pass.
The DPS benefit over a similar assault is right around 2% given similar damage mods setups.
The Amarr Commando is of particular note in that it cannot compete with the assault AT ALL due to tge assault heat reduction.
People fixate on the commando damage bonus but all it does is allow offensive parity with assaults, not offensive superiority.
You see the most egregious example of this when people talk about the minmatar commando utilizing swarms.
A minmatar commando with two damage mods kills with explosives at the EXACT SAME number of shots as a triple modded assault suit. The damage bar seems to move faster, TTK does not change.
The amarr commando is particularly obnoxious in that it gets only one damage mod slot where the assault gets 3. The assault also gets up to 25% heat reduction. This means the commando has lower potential DPS per shot as well as suffering lower sustained fire time.
The damage bonus currently provides only a placebo effect, not an actual advantage. Until this is addressed in one form or another, or the commandos have a clear operational advantage that cannot be negated by a standard assault fit then the class will not be balanced. Suppose it was bumped to 4% per level?
thats attractive and simple. i like it. |
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