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CPM input request: Commandos

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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3036	Posted - 2014.10.02 19:12:00 - [1] - Quote Input and feedback is being sought regarding the state of Commandos within Dust, and how to polish the experience. When responding to this thread please note your primary role / primary context for use of each item being commented on so that proper context can be applied. Cheers, Cross PS ~ Commandos are something I know comparatively little about, so please do your best to be detailed and constructive so that I am able to provide the very best feedback and ideas to CCP. Thanks See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3071	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:08:00 - [2] - Quote Keep it coming mercs, the more feedback the better. o7 Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3075	Posted - 2014.10.03 20:57:00 - [3] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Keep it coming mercs, the more feedback the better. o7 Cross We could provide better feedback if there was a clear statement of intent on what CCP intends the commando to be. If they intended it to be a suppressor they will need to bonus it for +range or significantly overhaul the ranges and expand the map sizes back out. If they want a shocktrooper we can do that. We need a statement of intent or we're just plinking away at "this sounds cool" and "oops, another bandaid fix." For the sake of argument, let's assume CCP wants to hear suggestions for roles we would like to see the Commando fill. Just for argument's sake. Yes let's do exactly that. I'll level with y'all I am doing these threads on my own initiative and then putting in the man hours to build spreadsheets/proposals from the feedback I've gathered. The Dust Dev team is comparatively small and they work hard so are very busy most of the time which means that the more we can do community crowdsourcing the more changes can be iterated on in a given time frame. TL;DR - Knowing the role is vital, but for now I would like the community to state their vision of the role *and why* then work outward from there. Community feedback is a part of the process, so we might as well go for it rather than wait Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3104	Posted - 2014.10.05 17:54:00 - [4] - Quote Fittings improvements seem like the key area that needs to be looked at from what I am 'hearing' so far. The how of that is a bit in dispute but most seem to agree that something needs done with it. There also seems to be a trend towards some addition too/touch up on the bonuses but 'what' and 'how much' is in much greater dispute and often predicated upon the type and degree of fittings buff. As to role, the overall sense I have at this point is that aiming the commando at a space 'between' the Assault and the Sentinel is likely the best bet for carving out a unique specialization while maintaining balance. This is, to an extent, where they are already situated but steps can be taken to emphasize this niche and endeavor to craft a more robust and rewarding specialist role out of it. Lastly, I realize these are fairly general statements but I am working top down on this because my on the field experience with the commando is rather limited. My goal at this point is to have a rough draft proposal linked in the OP before the end of the month (I'll get it in sooner if at all possible but even IRL aside I have a lot of draws in my time within Dust/CPM stuff right now). Once that 1st draft goes up I will be relying heavily upon another round of input from the community to really iterate on it prior to pushing it out to CCP. Until then continued discussion is good, the more constructive feedback, or unified perspective is present in this thread when I do my next read through prior to hammering out that draft, the readily we'll be able to reach a proposal which can be forwarded to CCP. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3154	Posted - 2014.10.07 17:14:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross 1. To what extent do performance statistics suggest that Commandos are hurting/underperforming? 2. Is the goal here to buff Commando performance or to more clearly define its battlefield role (or both)? In essence to accomplish #1 via #2. Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Cross To what extent do performance statistics suggest that Commandos are hurting? I'm willing to guess they're about where I'm guessing. Not horrendously underused but really not used as much as more specialized suits. That seems more or less accurate. Full disclosure: This is another 'on my own recognizance" thread meaning at least as yet I do not have CCPs use metrics in hand I am going based off of my own assessments and overall community commentary. The current Dust dev team is quite busy, so I find that more gets done if I am proactive and let CCP make the final call about what gets in/is altered based on the feedback I've gathered (which of course they do, I am not a Dev) than if I am passive and only do what I am specifically asked to do. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3235	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:54:00 - [6] - Quote Gentlemen, focus please. The thread topic is about defining a role, and properly supporting said role specialization for the Commandos. While I freely acknowledge that other classes are relevant to balance we will not likely find a robust role for one class by focusing on alterations to another. Do such alterations have merit, or possibly even need, on occasion? Sure. Is that the only, or even the first, step we need to establish a role for any given class, in this case the Commando? I do not believe it is. So, let us refocus on the Commando. What is it, what does it do, why does it do it? With those questions addressed the mechanical question of How does it do it can be addressed more clearly. Now, I don't expect anyone to simply define what will be, I know I certainly will not be able to myself, but that is what discussion is for. The question is not simply "how can we buff commandos", rather it is "what are commandos lacking to define a specialized role on the field. Alright, now that we've had the chance to clear that up, let's get back at it o7 Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3376	Posted - 2014.10.20 19:26:00 - [7] - Quote I'll try to have a proposal linked in the main thread within the next couple of days. The feedback has been strong here, so my thanks to everyone who is keeping this thread useful and active. In the spirit of iterative balance I intend to do two things. First is to provide a proposal that makes a solid, if smaller initial step. Second is to keep this thread active for feedback and polish following that because alterations (and/or additions) may be called for. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:39:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I am prepared for the inevitable buff followed by the crippling nerf as a result of a breach of the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" rule. I think there's some grey area in there for ongoing polish. But said phenomenon is part of why keeping it to smaller changes seems advisable. Besides, anything I propose has to be cleared by CCP R who by and large has been doing a pretty solid job on that front See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3377	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:41:00 - [9] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: looking forward to see what you cook up cross. o7 Once iteration #1 goes up we can see what responses the merc here assembled can give, refine as needed See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3383	Posted - 2014.10.21 03:56:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: looking forward to see what you cook up cross. o7 Once iteration #1 goes up we can see what responses the merc here assembled can give, refine as needed Given that the discussion has remained civil and free of the usual freefire idiocy any chance of conning the devs into active discussion? Honestly I'd like to see their input as well as our weird agreeing in oddly different wasy discussion. Once 1.9 drops? Quite possibly. Until then I'd expect them to remain mostly busy. Even if I can't however, I may at least be able to get a 'general impression/vision statement' thing regarding the commando role. I'm happy to give it a shot at least See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3384	Posted - 2014.10.21 16:04:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If you can give us a vision statement we can give you more useful, systematic and targeted feedback. Right now our feedback is basically a shotgun when we need a tac rifle. Totally reasonable. On a somewhat related note, that proposal may be delayed a bit as there are some possible new developments incoming which, if they are finalized would alter the landscape here a bit. Sorry the above is so vague, I really will try to get you guys something more useful and actionable soon, there's just so much on the go right now I don't want to start building on a baseline that may no longer be there in a handful of weeks. I want to reiterate however that this thread is not over nor forgotten in the least, and I will make best efforts to have something more meaningful to report. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3387	Posted - 2014.10.22 02:27:00 - [12] - Quote So, this may be a thing, take a look. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3398	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:50:00 - [13] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: When will the on hit snare effect be removed? Having a big hitbox is the main drawback of commando suits due to being easily slowed down by bullets. Should already be gone, if it isn't either I have hallucinated an entire change log, there is a bug that is making the game behave improperly, or peoples anecdotal impressions are giving them false positives. It has been quite awhile since I deployed in a commando, but I haven't encountered any notable bullet related slowdown of late during my own play (except, you know, the kind that leads to bleedout ) See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3398	Posted - 2014.10.22 07:53:00 - [14] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: So Cross, what's the status on some iterations for commandos? Pending, somewhat delayed in light of possible native regen changes as they would have some impact on the question. Primary outline at this point however is a focus on improved fitting ability as a first pass followed by a deeper look at the applied skill buffs if/as needed. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3398	Posted - 2014.10.22 08:18:00 - [15] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: So Cross, what's the status on some iterations for commandos? Pending, somewhat delayed in light of possible native regen changes as they would have some impact on the question. Primary outline at this point however is a focus on improved fitting ability as a first pass followed by a deeper look at the applied skill buffs if/as needed. As far as fitting goes, giving Cal an extra low and the rest an extra high with extra fitting would do wonders for making them more viable. But I definitely feel like, if we keep them as heavy suits, they need to be about regen, while sentinels need to be about raw hp. From the total feedback I have received keeping the Commando less tanked than the sentinel seems to be the trend. Thus as you say letting the Commando get their eHP via regen more than raw buffer, much as the Logistics frame would get its eHP via regen rather than the raw buffer of the Assault in the medium frame line. Keeping this arc allows more role uniqueness which also improves balance be removing or at least mitigating zero sum relationships between suits/roles. Making sure that this pardigm is present within both the Mando/Sent, and Logi/As line further promotes uniqueness by adding an element of contrast to the Assault Commando comparison. So yes, the intent is to keep the Commando as the heavy frame it is, but no "as heavy" as the Sentinel. Which is part of why iteration here is going to be effected by the results of this thread. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3447	Posted - 2014.10.23 10:55:00 - [16] - Quote New info to keep in mind for balance considerations moving forward. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3455	Posted - 2014.10.24 03:31:00 - [17] - Quote Let's table the great nomenclature debate for the moment and refocus on the suit How significant in the scheme of things do you mercs feel the recent native rep changes are for the various racial commandos? See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3521	Posted - 2014.10.27 20:10:00 - [18] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Meee One wrote: Be for warned,i don't use lolmandos but i just thought of this crazy idea. Everyone says commandos are suppression fighters,i think this is very vague. Snipers can suppress,scouts can suppress,assaults can suppress,etc. How about refining that definition? commandos could be bombardment suppression. Focused on getting as many rounds on the enemy as possible. sacrifice:damage increase. Gain:50-75% faster reload speed 100% ammunition capacity for racial weapons. The one thing everyone seems to forget is that commandos are heavies too,and they sacrifice armor not ammo. With this,commandos could launch seemingly endless rounds at enemies keeping them effectively suppressed through bombardment. 2 birds 1 stone. Aero suggested this 5 months ago when created a number of posts trying to redefine the role of the Commando. Any chance you have links on hand? I don't know that I saw those posts and I'd love to give them a look. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 09:19:00 - [19] - Quote Proposal link added to the OP. In light of the recent changes to native reps, and in the interests of iterative balance, I have kept the proposed changes to a minimum at this time. It is my intent to revisit the status of the Commando, with a specific eye to any need for polishing racial/role skill buffs after we have had a chance to assess the effects of these proposed changes. With that in mind, I look forward to your input on the status of my proposed first step. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 10:59:00 - [20] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Not changing PG/CPU to account for yhe new slots will exacerbate the problems with commandos. I've avoided altering PG/CPU values at this time due to the parity with Sentinel suits, since in some cases normalizing PG/CPU of Commandos to Sentinel levels would actually result in a reduction of the raw stats. I acknowledge that a fittings shift in PG/CPU has a significant likelihood of being called for but I would rather have game data to support that before recommending a change which would push Commando fittings levels beyond those of the - recently deemed to be too substantial and thus scaled down - values of the Sentinels who are sporting the same High/Low slot layouts. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3661	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:27:00 - [21] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Not changing PG/CPU to account for yhe new slots will exacerbate the problems with commandos. I've avoided altering PG/CPU values at this time due to the parity with Sentinel suits, since in some cases normalizing PG/CPU of Commandos to Sentinel levels would actually result in a reduction of the raw stats. I acknowledge that a fittings shift in PG/CPU has a significant likelihood of being called for but I would rather have game data to support that before recommending a change which would push Commando fittings levels beyond those of the - recently deemed to be too substantial and thus scaled down - values of the Sentinels who are sporting the same High/Low slot layouts. hey man, commando suits are tight on fittings already. i cant think of anything i could put in that extra slot without more cpu/pg As stated in my prior post, I am taking feedback for proposed cpu/pg value changes - both suggested numbers and the rational for same - and consider it likely a change there will be called for as well. It is, however, something that requires quite a bit more support and analysis to push the Commando above current Sent fittings values (especially when those values were recently deemed excessive and scaled down) than simply to recommend bringing the Commandos up to the same level as their heavy counterparts. CCP R appreciates numbers, spreadsheets, and data, if these can be provided and show such a larger alteration is needful then by all means provide them and I will be happy to present them. Lacking that however I must rely upon the in game data/metrics collected after a change is deployed to prove the need for further alterations. Sadly I lack sufficient first hand use of the Commando races at present to generate those proposed numbers myself, at least with any confidence, so I will need to lean on community work to supply those. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3662	Posted - 2014.11.01 11:30:00 - [22] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: this also doesnt make commandos better regen tankers in the case of the cal commando, since its regen abilities are tied to its god awful base shield recharge and shield delays. the delays need to be cut to 2 second shield delay and 3 second depleted shield delay with a base shield recharge of 40 hp/s to be better than cal assault or cal sentinels at regen tanking I'll do a side by side work up on comparative shield regen rates within the races, thank you for reminding me of that aspect, I apologize for the omission. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3666	Posted - 2014.11.01 17:11:00 - [23] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Cross Atu wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: this also doesnt make commandos better regen tankers in the case of the cal commando, since its regen abilities are tied to its god awful base shield recharge and shield delays. the delays need to be cut to 2 second shield delay and 3 second depleted shield delay with a base shield recharge of 40 hp/s to be better than cal assault or cal sentinels at regen tanking I'll do a side by side work up on comparative shield regen rates within the races, thank you for reminding me of that aspect, I apologize for the omission. already done good sir https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12sLzo5L0z0h4ZtzlchycjfoQj5PSinbFVWbLzdVfLQw/edit?usp=sharing Thank you very much, updating the primary sheet now o7 See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3724	Posted - 2014.11.05 10:15:00 - [24] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: here's a question, do we want commandos to be better regen tankers or the best regen tankers? if we make them better, then we can put them in between scouts, but i dont think thats where we going with this since gal commando has the nest native armor regen. so that said, are were going to change scouts at all, to make them less effective at regen tanking? cause then we can just switch the cal and min scout shield regen over the their respective commando suits. they would be the best shield regen suits, but not as mobile. this would be ok with me. My current impression (and this is of course open for feedback from the thread) is as follows. From the opening of the thread these changes are the most direct steps to improve Commando role and viability. 1. Make them better at regen (and the best heavy suit) 2. Make them better at fitting (normalize slots with sent, improve cpu/pg as needed) 3. Make them more mobile (like sta pool increase as a first element because it also enhances their 'fist of death' ) As things stand now 1. Native reps are a good move, finding a proper up tune for shields should be looked at 2. Slots seem like a given, cpu/pg seems like a high level probability with the question being more of one degree (roughly one mods worth more seems like a good starting point for discussion) 3. Bears further discussion, may or may not be needed, would like to keep the conversation open but may be held until a further iteration after we see the effects of other changes 4. Skill buffs - much more complex in assessment and/or alteration - unless there is a compelling reason otherwise this one I'd consider a 'don't touch it till later' aspect to be refined after sufficient data from the above changes has been gathered in game. Again I want to be completely clear that - current impression - isn't meant to mean "set is stone" and I welcome ongoing conversation. That being said I am heavily inclined to keep an iterative method as a focal point because we've all seen what a mess overly sweeping changes can cause. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

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