DUST Search - Sticky:Hotfix Delta

CCP Rattati wrote:

Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships.

Let's state a few data points.

1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable.

2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly

3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor)

4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor)

3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind?

3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely.

4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf.

Let's get to some more discussions.

Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey.

However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression.

A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV.

B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground

C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed.

D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel

E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire

F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back.

These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you?

Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking.

I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2134	Posted - 2014.09.28 14:25:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Pilots and anti-Pilots some numbers are in. Overall it seems that we successfully toned down the Assault Dropship power, and buffed the Dropship power. Looking at dropships compared to other vehicles, we are fairly happy with how the Python is playing out right now. There is a good solid spike of efficiency for the Small Blaster as well, correlating with the Grimsnes taking a leap upwards. The Incubus is still very powerful but not as powerful as the Python. The Myron is just not very good at all, and nothing changed with the increased EHP/PG/CAP and Turret changes. Let's explore together simple ways to tweak these two. Personally, not a fan of the rapid fire railgun turrets, please keep that in mind. Also keep in mind that the ROF on railLAV's was reduced on purpose, due to infantry sniping. Maybe a combination of increasing the Incubus bonus to ROF slightly, or simply removing the 70% rail turret inefficiency against vehicles and then increasing chargeup time rather than decreasing ROF to balance? Or heat? On the Myron/Grimsnes, someone advocated more maneuverability without increased speed, sounds like a fine idea. Experienced Myron pilots, what about it's fitting style or bonuses makes it so much worse than the Python. (A similar question but off topic, the Gunnlogi is quite less efficient than the Madrugar, bonus points to explain why) Appreciate the feedback How is the Gunnlogi less efficient than the Maddy? Because it has too much downtime with cooldown. There's no interruption to armor rep, yet you need 2 shield hardeners active to keep your shield up against ADV swarms. And also, you changed the railgun damage profile to do less to shields, and more to armor. That's another leg up the G'logi has against the Maddy. Plus with the fitting requirements, it's much easier to fit 2 damage mods on a G'logi, possibly complex damage mods at that, so you get near 40% extra damage considering stacking penalties. CPU and PG expansion mods are lot slot mods, so you can sacrifice an armor rep, plate or hardener to fit those complex damage mods plus a hardener. Overall, the Gunnlogi is far, far superior for destroying all vehicles over the Madrugar. The only problem is it's aforementioned down time. Do you fly dropships at all? Have you spent enough time to learn how to fly an ADS before Delta, learning how to maneuver them to get the best angle? Going further, what's their intended role now? I'd rather have the old fire rate for the Python back with half the missile damage across all tiers. I prefer a faster fire rate over more damage. It allows for more margin of error, especially when dealing with AV infantry. The Python is pretty squishy, especially if there's any reds on the field with at least ADV forge guns. You could have someone who's surprisingly good at doing no-math calculations with forge projectile travel time and ship flying speed and vector using just a STD level breach forge, and deny a 300m half sphere to all dropships in the sky. And that's just one person. Couple it with just one person using swarms, able to get off 2 volleys, and that's a dead ship. It's now next to impossible to escape swarms, unless you have boots on the ground to tell you when to go away, because that's the only way to escape the third volley. They still go around corners fairly well too. Also, rendering still sucks. At 200m, nothing appears. At 100, you're lucky if some stuff appears. Even at 50 or 75m, half the time they'll render, half the time they won't. And there's also still invisible swarms. The Incubus can't kick out enough DPS to effective deal with vehicles anymore. Plus, actually having the Gal ADS skill greatly hinders the amount of rounds you can fire, which reduces effective DPS. Is the ADS meant for quick transport? We had that with the Logi dropships. Problem was, they flew like bricks. Very slow and too little maneuverability. They also had a built-in MCRU, which didn't get any sort of passive bonus to the respawn time. If you want quick transport, bring those back with increased maneuverability, and make the passive bonus for quicker spawning. You could give them 4/2 or 2/4, increased base HP, 6 passenger slots, but no turrets. Vehicles constantly get pushed aside so infantry can get appeased. You could spend some time getting into squads with pilots to hear what we have to say. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2157	Posted - 2014.10.06 18:59:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Yes, I would like to deploy a few tactical tweaks over next two weeks, concerning the viability of dropships. Let's state a few data points. 1) Fact. The sky did not fall down, the ADS is not being instapopped all over the place, that much is clear. So swarm vs ADS does not need any specific attention. It's scarier for sure for pilots, but not untenable. 2) Small Blaster Turrets are better in Delta, our data shows that clearly 3) Incubus is less efficient than the Python, in effective kills per spawn, or K/S. (i.e. Shield better than Armor) 4) Myron is less efficient than the Grimsnes in K/S. (Shield better than Armor) 3 and 4a) K/S is not an absolute measure of dropship efficiency as they are used for different things, but they are still a useful metric. WP/S is another and ISK destroyed/ISK lost is the third. Any other smart metric that comes to mind? 3a) Can a veteran pilot please post indisputably competitive fits for all 4 dropships for us to study internally. Protofits link will do nicely. 4) Yet, people complain that the Python is worse than the Incubus, even after the rail ROF nerf. Let's get to some more discussions. Players have been asking, "what is the role of the ADS", and to that I only have one answer, "we provide the sandbox, you play in it". We have no intent to shoehorn in an exact playstyle. We have broadly defined the HAV Large Turrets to be "AV", and that's it. Same goes for the Dropships, they should be durable and slow, and be able to deliver their payload of a full squad to an objective while under fire, and while suppressing enemy infantry, basically a Huey. However, we can define some gameplay where the ADS should excel. Of course the Apache is the "blueprint" for the Close Combat Infantry suppression and/or Tank hunting, and the AC-130 for long range suppression. A) First contact. ADS, being the most mobile unit, rapidly deploys two 2 man units on Objectives with uplinks, while the rest wait to spawn, or even 3-4 solo units. It can then reinforce weak spots and support infantry, that in turn supports the ADS against infantry AV. B) Harass and Suppress enemy airforces by destroying recently delivered dropships on the ground C) Destroy enemy HAVs - the firepower should be enough to to identify a hostile target, and take it out in a single run, even under light Anti-Air resistance. If an HAV is deployed in the middle of the map, the ADS should be able to take it out unless 2 Anti-Air units are defending it (give or take), if an HAV is deployed in the redzone and comes rumbling into battle, the ADS should be able to put a hurt on even the toughest Madrugar. If the ADS flies into a trap and 2 Small Turret gunners pop out with Forges or Swarms, the ADS should probably be destroyed. D) Recon - Utilizing speed and equipping scanners to provide intel E) Objective Suppression, stay out of the 175 meter lock range, at 300 out of Forge Range and pummel an objective or spawnpoint with missile fire/rail fire F) All the Delta changes were intended to do was reduce the ADS's OP efficiency at almost everything, Now we can carefully bring tactically chosen efficiencies back. These are a few playstyles that should work. I hear that the Incubus ROF is not enough currently to properly be able to do C). What is the effective ROF necessary at full skills, to be able to kill a fully skilled solo Madrugar in a "single" strafing run, or DPS necessary? Can it be done by Pilot alone? At 2 or 3 gunners, it should be relatively easy as you have invested 3 players to kill 1 in the HAV, the HAV should then have 2 Anti Air infantry to defend him. Tank players, where is your line, you don't want to be instapopped do you? Please support your ROF/DPS proposals with the fits you are using and also the Madrugar/Gunnlogi you are attacking. I downed a Python two days ago with two Wiyrkomi Breach shots. There's literally nothing wrong with AV, and as usual vehicles are still underpowered. Experience means nothing anymore, because people will still get on here and complain they can't solo someone like me with MLT swarms. And then you'll nerf vehicles again, while at the same time buffing AV. Why not just delete vehicles already? We're heading down that path quickly right now anyway, why not just finalize it? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim