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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4367
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Posted - 2014.09.26 13:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
First, I have been using HMG since Patch 1.3 and I was very grateful when the HMG was finally fixed and became the formidable weapon it was meant to be, but I have been less happy with how easy it is to operate. I donGÇÖt like my weapon of choice being GÇ£Easy ModeGÇ¥. It makes it hard to get any respect as a Sentinel.
Second, I have greatly enjoyed using the Burst HMG since Charlie and having to deal with heat management. It made the Burst HMG less GÇ£EasyGÇ¥ without preventing it from being effective in skilled hands. In Delta they have made the heat buildup of the Burst HMG even more extreme, yet it is still an effective weapon in the right hands. The point is, I found dealing with heat management to be a fun challenge.
Third, I have tried the Militia HMG and only managed to overheat it once so far, in an extreme situation, but it did have enough heat buildup that I had to pay attention to it, which I found to be more fun than using the Standard HMG which despite the Charlie heat nerf, still requires very little attention to heat management.
The Standard HMG is supposed to be more of a continuous fire suppression weapon, so it canGÇÖt have heat buildup anywhere close to the Burst, but there is still room to introduce more heat management than it has now without impinging very much on its effectiveness in the hands of a skilled operator.
Current Heat Buildup per Second:
Militia HMG: 23.5
Standard HMG: 16
Advanced HMG: 15.2
Prototype HMG: 14.4
Officer HMG: 12.8
My Proposed Heath Buildup per Second for Echo:
Militia HMG: 26
Standard HMG: 20
Advanced HMG: 18
Prototype HMG: 16
Officer HMG: 14
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4369
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
I donGÇÖt think that HMG Sentinels need any more fitting nerfs.
But I would be fine with another Light Weapon Sentinel fitting nerf (PC/CPU nerf with equal Heavy Weapon fitting bonus) provided the Assault HMG was given a bit more rang, or a Tactical HMG was added (Long range, no dispersion, like HMG used to be).
Currently my only objection to a Light Weapon Sentinel fitting nerf is Manus Peak Domination. HMGGÇÖs are useless in that map and I am crap with a Forge Gun. If we donGÇÖt have the option to switch to a Rail Rifle, then we need a long range HMG. Before the HMG was fixed, it had a lot more range, but was hard to use in CQC. I would like to see that setup used in a new Tactical variant of the HMG. Failing that, I would like to see the Assault HMG get a bit more range.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4369
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Posted - 2014.09.26 15:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Every heavy I have seen running a light weapon over the last couple weeks has been a commando.
The only exception to this is the sniper sent, and they just ate a huge nerf.
You make a good point. It seems that the original Light Weapon Sentinel nerf may have done its job, particularly when combined with buffs to the Assault suit. LetGÇÖs park this topic until people start complaining about Light Weapon Sentinels again. It is getting away from the original topic anyway.
Also, making all the Commandos red probably helped with cases of mistaken identity, which may have contributed to the QQ on Light Weapon Heavies.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4383
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Posted - 2014.09.26 19:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
ACT1ON BASTARD wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I have always been of the opinion that current HMG damage and application is damn near perfect, and heat management and aiming should be what defines a skilled heavy. So thank you for the detailed input and feedback. I say you nerf res 1st. Basic res kill my proto sentinel no problem so what would be the point of skilling them up. Just change the efficency on infantry so no changes to vehicle/re gameplay. I think the damage profiles should be something like this: -+basic res- 600 damage -+advanced- 900 damage -+proto-1200
If I know someone is using REGÇÖs I watch for them and I go wide when coming around corners. REGÇÖs are one of the main reasons I carry Flux Grenades. My point is that there is a lot you can do to counter REGÇÖs. If you see them you can avoid them.
The incentive to skilling up REGÇÖs is that you can deploy more higher level REGÇÖs at the same time, and the delay between dropping them and being able to activate them is reduced on the better REGÇÖs.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4856
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Posted - 2014.11.14 15:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sequal Rise wrote:Heavies purpose isn't to keep a point/group from CQ attacks?
Right now heavies camp on rooftop with HMG destroying everything at mid range.
20m is already big for a 800 DPS weapon, but right now it's way too much.
The overheat is not and has never been the problem. Nerfing it isn't the solution. The range is.
If you dont want to see heavies with light weapons, CCP must make them impossible to fit on heavy slots.
-With the exception of the Assault HMG, HMGGÇÖs are only effective when camping from single story buildings. With two story buildings, such as the GÇ£TabletopGÇ¥ an HMG has reduced effectiveness on targets due to range until they come very close to the base of the structure. This is because dispersion starts to reduce HMG dps at far less than Optimal Range. Therefor the real optimal range of the HMG is less than the Optimal Range numbers would suggest.
-A Shotgun is only effective at short range because it is used by fast, stealthy suits that can get into short range quickly, or they are used on Commando suits which have a long range option and only need the Shotgun in CQC. There is a reason why you almost never see a Sentinel using a Shotgun. A slow suit with a very short ranged weapon is not effective at all. Everyone can see it on their radar. Everyone can outrun it. People would only engage a Sentinel who is using a very short range weapon when they feel they have the advantage. This would be just as true with an HMG if the range was severely nerfed as it is true for a Sentinel with a Shotgun.
-If HMG Optimal Range were reduced to less than 20m, then HMG Sentinels would only be used in very specific situations where an objective is located in a confined space. The HMG Sentinel would not be a viable specialization, and would only be worth skilling into for people who had already maxed out their primary role. You would still see some HMG Sentinels (mostly militia) in Gallente Research Facility Domination, and a few other places, but in most matches you would not see a single HMG Sentinel.
-Your suggestions would kill the class. Is that your intention?
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4856
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Posted - 2014.11.14 16:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Man, I am probably in the minority here..but I would prefer if they nerfed the standard hmg damage a bit.
While I disagree with you on this, I don't do PC, so we may be coming at it from different perspectives. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for a damage nerf.
Zatara Rought wrote:And I'd like to see the freedom get much tighter dispersion so it's actually getting a lot more of it's dps out at it's intended ranges.
I agree, the Assault HMG needs less dispersion. I am not sure what it's Optimal Range is supposed to be but it's optimal range (in the field rather than on paper) needs to be about 10m longer. (I capitalize when talking of the Optimal Range stat, while using lower case optimal range when describing the ranges at which the HMG gets optimal damage output in the field.)
Zatara Rought wrote:As it currently stands only a bad heavy overheats the HMG.
Even good Heavies might overheat a Militia HMG in a tight situation, and of course there is the Burst, but otherwise I completely agree with you.
Zatara Rought wrote:Kin Kats on heavies are mitigating it's purpose as a slow tanky suit.
A Sentinel can't stack Kin Kats and Plates at the same time. By not stacking plate a Sentinel is opening themselves up to getting one shotted by high end Nova Knives and Remote explosives, and two shotted by Shotguns and Sniper Rifle Head shots. They also have a much smaller armor buffer, making working with logi much less effective. Overall, the Speed Sentinel is much easier to kill than a Brick Tanked sentinel, and can't recover as quickly as a Rep Sentinel.
So, yes, stacking Kin Kats does make up for one of the Sentinel's weaknesses, but they are also giving up much of their edge where they are strongest as well. A Kin Kat Sentinel will die a lot more often than a Brick Tanked Sentinel. While stacking Kin Kats will help a Sentinel close distance faster and flank more effectively, I don't think they give enough of a speed increase to allow a Sentinel to effectively speed tank, as even when they are moving faster, they still have a much bigger hit box (just as a Brick Tanked Scout can speed tank more effectively than an Assault moving at the same speed due to the difference in the size of their hit box).
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4856
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Posted - 2014.11.14 20:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Where is the data that a non plate stacked heavy get's 1 shot by NK's?
That is from personal experience. The Sentinel fits I use have no more than a single plate (unless a logi begs me to run a brick fit) and I have meany times gotten 1 shotted with Nova Knives.
I am not saying just any Nova Knife fit. When I say "many times" I mean over an extended period of time. It seems to only be the highest damage Proto Nova Knife fits, but Nova Knifers have definitely one shotted my sentinel. It probably involves a head shot.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4856
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Posted - 2014.11.14 22:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Increase the time before the spool up give you optimal damage, increase the heat buildup incrementally.
This sounds more interesting than simple cries of GÇ£nerf damage!GÇ¥
Were you thinking a slower rate of fire until the HMG spools up? I think currently spool up time only effects dispersion.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4860
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Posted - 2014.11.17 13:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:(1) My Adv Cal Sent gets 1 shot from NKs. However I have only noticed that with Min scouts. I *think* other scouts take two as I have taken two to die.
(2) I contest that based on 1 factor. Sprint speed can be buffed -- but movement speed cannot. So those 600 hp scouts have higher strafe left and right speed. That makes a huge difference in an open field 1v1 gunfight. I instead find that the hit detection/ network code favors the scout.
(3) That's pretty true. Don't forget that heavies take more damage than other suits due to their slow side to side step speed and larger hit box. However, yes you can use kincats to nullify one of the disadvantages of being a heavy as far as moving from location to location goes.
(4) I also agree/find this to be true (and telling of the situation!)
Some good points.
Also regarding your earlier comments about heat buildup that I did not quote, If you can find a way to work in a short pause in firing at some point during the fight, it can extend your time before overhead noticeably. Such as when moving from one target to the next, if you stop firing during that instant between targets. Or if you over correct and swing past your target for a moment, try to stop firing until you get your HMG back on target. These are things you sort of have to train yourself to do, but they make a give difference in heat management.
I use the Militia HMG all the time and find it very effective unless I am facing more than 3 people at a time. You could try using the Militia HMG to really learn heat management, then the Standard HMG will seem easy by comparison.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
4865
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Posted - 2014.11.17 19:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Neither are you representing an interest in actually fixing the problem.
Instead you are treating the problems and my input as inconsequential, irrelevant and ignorant along the slant of me trying to protect an easy mode.
I despise the heavy meta and want it to burn. But your assertions do not solve the problem. They just change the problem. Glad we were able to talk it out on skype and that we now have THIS.  o/ Breakin
You two talked? Is that why Breakin is now calling for a slight HMG damage nerf? Are you contagious or something?  Actaully Breakin makes a good argument in that thread.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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