DUST Search - Team Balancing with Solo Players and The Lack of Team Play

Soraya Xel wrote:

You're banking on the mild hope that being randomly squadded with no instruction might encourage coordination. As a justification to make the game experience more annoying for others. Other than perhaps the mentioned claim someone might help with an orbital. That, since they don't know the game, they have no way of knowing they contributed to. Squadded clueless people are not really better than unsquadded clueless people. And certainly not worth the cost of frustrating players under some concept of trying to subtly indoctrinate them into your preferred playstyle.

The particular reason I am calling out Molon Labe, is I do not even recall ever meeting people more openly hostile towards solo play than Molon Labe members. And in particular, there are people in here in this thread and in my conversations on Skype who have made some notion of understanding that there are middle grounds to be made. Ideas of how to make options, or other ways to streamline squad-based play. They were not the Molon Labe members in this thread. Every Molon Labe member posting here, to my recollection, is staunchly against making it convenient to play the game solo. I am simply calling out what I see, a corp who has decided that the way they play should be the only way to play.


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Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1847	Posted - 2014.09.25 15:31:00 - [1] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: I don't think the system works as well as it should be due to the massive amounts of solo players. I can't see if the other team is without squads, but it happens a LOT where you deploy in and there isn't a single person in a squad on your team (yes I solo from time to time). A few things I think could improve the situation: 1) Automatically placing players in squads as they reach the warbarge 2) Automatically placing the defend order on the squad leader (he/she can change it to someone else if they'd like) By the off chance there may be some of these players that realize the potential and importance of playing as a squad. Besides the in depth skill system Dust 514's greatest attribute is the team play features. It's been ignored for so long I think the game play has deteriorated significantly. There are many, many more game play styles available than we had in beta, but I squads were abundant and the matches felt like there was some strategy and skill involved. It is NOT fun to continually feel as though you are 6 v 16 in matches. Agreed. Thor and I were in a squad that got stomped for 10 games in a row last night. Every match we entered hopeful played extremely hard only to realize our teamates had given up 2 minutes in leaving the enemy to focus all 16 of their players on us. It was brutal. Something needs to be done to encourage more team play and actually trying to win. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:42:00 - [2] - Quote There are an awful lot of people complaining about the idea of being automatically placed into squads saying it would ruin their experience but this is exactly what Mag did and not only did no one complain but it was great. In Mag you didn't have to be on comms if you didn't want. You didn't need to follow squad orders. You didn't need to engage with your team at all, but there were benefits for doing so in the way of increased XP. In Dust this would play out as increased SP which would directly translate into more SP growth for players working as a team. It wouldn't impinge upon your ability to tool around in anyway but would definitely encourage you to work with your squad. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1873	Posted - 2014.09.26 17:03:00 - [3] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: There are an awful lot of people complaining about the idea of being automatically placed into squads saying it would ruin their experience but this is exactly what Mag did and not only did no one complain but it was great. In Mag you didn't have to be on comms if you didn't want. You didn't need to follow squad orders. You didn't need to engage with your team at all, but there were benefits for doing so in the way of increased XP. In Dust this would play out as increased SP which would directly translate into more SP growth for players working as a team. It wouldn't impinge upon your ability to tool around in anyway but would definitely encourage you to work with your squad. Most of these guys just like to troll noobs to pad kd. If everyone in-game started knowing what to do and where to be they couldn't kill solo players in the back. Everyone would be more organized. Isn't that a thought? Everyone, all 16, working in unison to win battles? This is what we used to have happen during closed beta. Even people who ran solo kept tabs on what their team mates were doing and tried to work with them. There has been a fundamental shift away from that since uprising began though which is the whole problem. Thor's proposal to automatically put people into squads would at least have the chance to boost team interaction, which could lead to better team work and thus better matches. A set of easy to follow, clear tutorials, that could not simply be clicked through, which explained team mechanics in Dust and their benefits, may have similar results. The down side of textual tutorials though is that they honestly get ignored. If this is the route CCP plans on taking I would make them reward based challenges to new players, there are already several of these in the NPE which do seem to help players learn the ropes. In this case players would be rewarded with SP for joining a squad via squad finder, starting a squad, issuing a squad order, etc. All of these little learn by doing tutorials could have the same effect as forcing squad membership. Unfortunately I don't think tutorials are the total solution. I really think that placing people into squads automatically, something done by many FPS games by the way, would in no way degrade the solo player experience but would greatly enhance the chance of team work. Squad play should be the default in this game, which is a tactical team based FPS. By making it the default CCP would normalize (think social norming theory here) team work, making its rewards more apparent, and helping each game feel more pitched and contested than they currently do. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 1902	Posted - 2014.09.29 23:07:00 - [4] - Quote But why even have the option to not auto-cue into a squad. It is in no way detrimental to be there? As soon as the battle you're out of the squad. Once again, no downside. If people are annoying, mute them. If you don't think the squad is moving in the right direction, don't go there. I do not see any way that being auto-placed into a squad changes your ability to treat this game like it is not a team based shooter. No player or mechanic will ever be able to stop you from ignoring team play and refusing to work with people, regardless of whether you are placed into a squad or not. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 1904	Posted - 2014.09.30 05:46:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: But why even have the option to not auto-cue into a squad. And this is where you prove you're just pushing your corp's agenda, and aren't interested in helping players or making the experience better for everyone. You're far more interested in forcing player behavior than enabling players or giving them options. Wait a minute. Just because we are in a corp together you automatically assume that we are pushing some large corp interest/agenda? Didn't you ever learn that collation does not equal causation? Sure, there is a collation. Several people in our corp think that this is a good idea. But that does not even remotely mean that we are asserting some larger agenda. Saying that several people from the same corp agreeing on a topic means that they are all pushing a "corp agenda" is just as well thought out and logical as saying that the decrease in the number of pirates is directly related to climate change. Think about it. The number of pirates in the world is decreasing and the global climate is warming. Does this mean that the change in the number of pirates is the cause for climate change? Your argument is equally insipid. No. We as a corp have no official agenda about this topic. It just happens that several of us feel strongly about it. I also really like how you've totally ignored my earlier posts as well as the rest of my post. Not only would placing people into squads have zero affect on how the game plays out for solo players it would give them the potential to earn more war points and thus SP. Remember, you don't have to follow squad orders, you don't have to be on voice coms, you don't even have to stay near your team mates. Should you do any of these things though you will earn more skill points thanks to the auto squad order in Thor's proposal. Additionally, since the squadding would happen once you began loading into a match, you wouldn't have to wait for a squad leader to cue you in. So lets look at the two sides: Pro_________________________________________________________Con GùèHelps new players learn team work____________________________GùèNot all players like team work GùèProvides opportunity for new players to learn from vets_____________GùèNo counter GùèCan leave squad if you want__________________________________Gùèdon't want to be in squad GùèCan mute comms__________________________________________Gùèdon't want to talk to others GùèMay result in more WP and thus more SP_______________________GùèNo counter GùèAble to still play independent of squad__________________________GùèAble to still work with squad GùèNo waiting for squad leader to cue into battle_____________________GùèDon't want to wait for squad leader to cue into battle GùèMost other team based games include auto squad making__________GùèNo counter with no issues or impact on player choice Take a look at this comparison and tell me if I have mis-represented your view then tell me how the two sides stack up. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 1906	Posted - 2014.09.30 09:25:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: You're banking on the mild hope that being randomly squadded with no instruction might encourage coordination. As a justification to make the game experience more annoying for others. Other than perhaps the mentioned claim someone might help with an orbital. That, since they don't know the game, they have no way of knowing they contributed to. Squadded clueless people are not really better than unsquadded clueless people. And certainly not worth the cost of frustrating players under some concept of trying to subtly indoctrinate them into your preferred playstyle. The particular reason I am calling out Molon Labe, is I do not even recall ever meeting people more openly hostile towards solo play than Molon Labe members. And in particular, there are people in here in this thread and in my conversations on Skype who have made some notion of understanding that there are middle grounds to be made. Ideas of how to make options, or other ways to streamline squad-based play. They were not the Molon Labe members in this thread. Every Molon Labe member posting here, to my recollection, is staunchly against making it convenient to play the game solo. I am simply calling out what I see, a corp who has decided that the way they play should be the only way to play. By calling out the corp for the outspoken actions of three of its members you really are making some huge assumptions. We are not the voice of Molon Labe. nor do we claim to be. Heck, there are aproaching 600 members in Molon the vast majority of whom are regularly active. Calling any group of 3 representative of that number of people is simply ignorant of the diversity inherent in a group of gamers. When I come to the forums I come to promote the ideas I think will be best for the game, not myself, and not the corp. The greater community is who I advocate for. The more you talk about our corp using gross assumptions the more I loose respect for you as a community advocate. As to your argument that this suggestion would alienate solo players for minimal benefit to the rest of the community you are totally off base. There is no team based FPS where players being put into squads is in anyway an impediment to people choosing to play solo. There are many ways to ensure that you never hear another player, none of which being automatically being placed into squads would stop. This idea would not cause any meaningful changes for players who are dedicated to running solo, though it would have an impact on cooperation and team play as a whole, facts that you seem not to understand. Since you're clearly baffled by my insistence on emphasizing team play perhaps you could ask some questions instead of treating me like my ideas aren't worth the pixels they are displayed upon. That is what a good community representative would do, and what we gave you the mandate to do when we elected you to the CPM. You aren't asking for clarification though I'll take the initiative and explain. This game is, at its core a team based game. Just look at the battles, the way they are organized, the terminology used, the corporation system. Every aspect of this game emphasizes team based actions. Squads, are simply a smaller unit of the team, and corps are a larger entity that may encompass multiple teams. In seeking to emphasize squad and team based play over solo play I am simply trying to help push this game to be the full embodyment of that vision. Soloplay, which lacks any means of team or squad level coordination, is no better than a simple death match. It lacks the interaction that makes this game fun and unique. If I wanted to play that I would be playing Quake Online. Furthermore, increased teamwork (which begins with squad coordination) will lead to more competitive battles. When two full teams are pushing each other's lines, probing for weaknesses, or working together to break each other's dominance of a point, the match becomes extremely exciting. Those moments when you are working together and you help your team succeed in a difficult situation are what bring people back to a game time and again. Placing people into squads, and helping them in the direction of coordination is the first step in making those moments more common. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1926	Posted - 2014.10.02 04:13:00 - [7] - Quote maluble wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: maluable, I've been a proponent of the concept of having like Ambush be solo-only, for instance. I've also suggested above in this thread that an auto-squad queuing mechanic could be separate from the existing Instant Battle manual queuing mechanic, which would ensure those who chose to be auto-squadded were willingly selecting the feature. Which would, in turn, mean your auto-squad would be more effective and more likely to want to behave like a squad. Wana know what will help this problem, keep new players in academy. Anyone with less that 10mil sp should be in diffrent server. How does nobody else see new players are 90% of the problem. I think it's sad that this problem wasn't forseen. New players drag the ones that know how to play down. Wait wait wait. There are many new players that know what they are doing and are able to participate in the battle in a meaningful way. Just because they have low SP numbers doesn't mean they are getting in the way of you having a good time. Some players simply need more help getting accustomed to the complexities of dust. It has more going on than other shooters and the choices/information can be a bit baffling. Please refrain from making blanket statements which denegrate new players, who are after all, ensuring the future of the game we love. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1928	Posted - 2014.10.02 14:58:00 - [8] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: maluble wrote: Wana know what will help this problem, keep new players in academy. Anyone with less that 10mil sp should be in diffrent server. How does nobody else see new players are 90% of the problem. I think it's sad that this problem wasn't forseen. New players drag the ones that know how to play down. Absolutely disagree. Holy crap! You and I actualy agree on something! Watch out, the world might just implode. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1930	Posted - 2014.10.03 04:14:00 - [9] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Adding forced squads wont do anything to encourage teamplay, did you not play MAG? It had the same issues. We need to encourage the whole team to play together not just squads... I would suggest replacing squad orders with team orders for everyone to see and take part in, even if they are soloing. This might just get a few people to visit the same points on the map even if they aren't in a squad together. Of course to stop 16 solo squads placing orders all over the map, it might need a limit on how many squads there are per team. Or you could just have solo players automatically thrown into squads. From one day to the next I doubt you'd see any difference in matches. Your proposal would have 16 players zerging from point to point and that would be really stupid. Even Derpty's idea would be better than what we have right now though. Which would we rather have, 16 people all zerging a single point or 6 people moving from point to point, 4 dividing their solo energies between AV and killing, and the final 6 hiding in the redline or spinning in circles in the MCC. Given the two options I would much rather have the zerg. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1957	Posted - 2014.10.18 17:14:00 - [10] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: So this is where I stand on this issue: 1. I support the default placement of blues into squads. 2. I support an option under gameplay settings that allows players to check a box that opts them out of this default setting. I think that's a fair compromise. The rookies would benefit from default squad placement and I imagine that a high number of them would not choose to opt out of this setting. Conversely, the types of players who hate being forced to squad up with strangers could make the conscious decision to permanently opt out within a few very simple button clicks. The bottom line is that inexperienced, unsophisticated players would be better served under this change. We can argue about the extent of said benefit, but it would clearly be an improvement over what we have now. At this point I'm willing to conceed on point 2 (something I have previously stated opposition too) if it allows any chance of this idea moving forward. Now with more evil.