DUST Search - Instant battle: what will kill open world

SponkSponkSponk wrote:

Legion has the ability to bring open world FPS play to New Eden, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it's incompatible with instant battles.

Case 1: WoW battlegrounds vs open world PvP. Once battlegrounds were added, open world PvP withered away quickly. Why wander around the world for a chance to fight when you're guaranteed one by queueing up?

Case 2: the prototype for instanced PvP in Eve is meeting stiff opposition for similar reasons; with instant pvp on tap, why roam?

The only 'instant battle' I can see working is the ones made popular by Red Vs Blue in Eve.

* Fights occur with no matchmaking or maximum number of participants
* Fights always occur in a handful of linked systems instead of everywhere
* The fights are governed by existing game mechanics instead of making massive exceptions for them
* Losses are real (this would be a given in Legion as well, but is worth stating)
* income is negligible. Unless you fly the cheapest of ships and don't die often, it's an income-negative proposition. In fact, it's more like a hobby that your Eve player engages in; fit up a few dozen frigates, lose them gloriously, then go back to your day job.

tldr; Legion is in danger of its open world being gutted if there's even an option of lobby-based instant battles.

"Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth

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SponkSponkSponk The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1078	Posted - 2014.09.25 14:30:00 - [1] - Quote Legion has the ability to bring open world FPS play to New Eden, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it's incompatible with instant battles. Case 1: WoW battlegrounds vs open world PvP. Once battlegrounds were added, open world PvP withered away quickly. Why wander around the world for a chance to fight when you're guaranteed one by queueing up? Case 2: the prototype for instanced PvP in Eve is meeting stiff opposition for similar reasons; with instant pvp on tap, why roam? The only 'instant battle' I can see working is the ones made popular by Red Vs Blue in Eve. * Fights occur with no matchmaking or maximum number of participants * Fights always occur in a handful of linked systems instead of everywhere * The fights are governed by existing game mechanics instead of making massive exceptions for them * Losses are real (this would be a given in Legion as well, but is worth stating) * income is negligible. Unless you fly the cheapest of ships and don't die often, it's an income-negative proposition. In fact, it's more like a hobby that your Eve player engages in; fit up a few dozen frigates, lose them gloriously, then go back to your day job. tldr; Legion is in danger of its open world being gutted if there's even an option of lobby-based instant battles. Dust/Eve transfers
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2156	Posted - 2014.09.25 15:28:00 - [2] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Legion has the ability to bring open world FPS play to New Eden, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it's incompatible with instant battles. Case 1: WoW battlegrounds vs open world PvP. Once battlegrounds were added, open world PvP withered away quickly. Why wander around the world for a chance to fight when you're guaranteed one by queueing up? Case 2: the prototype for instanced PvP in Eve is meeting stiff opposition for similar reasons; with instant pvp on tap, why roam? The only 'instant battle' I can see working is the ones made popular by Red Vs Blue in Eve. * Fights occur with no matchmaking or maximum number of participants * Fights always occur in a handful of linked systems instead of everywhere * The fights are governed by existing game mechanics instead of making massive exceptions for them * Losses are real (this would be a given in Legion as well, but is worth stating) * income is negligible. Unless you fly the cheapest of ships and don't die often, it's an income-negative proposition. In fact, it's more like a hobby that your Eve player engages in; fit up a few dozen frigates, lose them gloriously, then go back to your day job. tldr; Legion is in danger of its open world being gutted if there's even an option of lobby-based instant battles. I would tend to agree with you. However, I think that if they implemented it similar to RDR it could work. There could be kiosks at certain areas of the maps, these kiosks would function as merc "job boards" which would allow instanced PvP matches to be set up. There would be a wait time where you needed to be near the kiosk or you would get passed over for the instanced battle. People could come and go as they pleased and dependent on the sec status of the District, acts of violence would be punishable. If it is lowsec and I decide to drop an RE in the middle of the group waiting for the instanced battle, well, I think you get the idea. Even then, I could see most "open world PvP" occurring near one of the kiosks. The only question that remains is how do you prevent open world PvP from becoming roaming blobs of mechanized infantry raping everything that gets in their way? "Heres the deal, in the 40s there was Normandy today you got punks, some need culling real bad." --Truth Logi for Hire
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3679	Posted - 2014.09.25 15:44:00 - [3] - Quote The Dojo prototype thread is hilarious. So many tears. So many. I disagree heavily. World PvP, battlegrounds, and arenas are all completely different types of gameplay. I left PvP servers back in my WoW days because of horrific game imbalance, but I generally enjoyed world PvP, and did not enjoy battlegrounds much. They play out differently. World PvP is non-consensual and unexpected. Battlegrounds are like lines of redcoats in the revolutionary war. Everyone knows what's going to happen in the next ten minutes. They're two inherently different types of gameplay. I feel non-consensual PvP is important for Legion. But I also heavily value the ability to quickly jump on the game and play a match. Both mechanics have a place. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9552	Posted - 2014.09.26 06:32:00 - [4] - Quote There are starter systems in Eve Online where player new players are granted protection from other veteran players so they can't be ganked, scammed, or otherwise robbed or extortioned in these systems. However, these starter systems are few and far in between. They are also extremely limited in resources and the profit made there is extremely small which then forces players to leave the safety of their starter systems if they wish to continue to grow. At that point, the new player will have to face the vets on their own when the time comes that their skills and understanding of the game has far exceeded what the starter systems can provide. The same can work with Legion. Allow instant matches, but keep payment reasonably low in relation to the large profits made from venturing into the unknown open world. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9553	Posted - 2014.09.26 18:43:00 - [5] - Quote One more thing, before anyone comes in here claiming that opens worlds and shooters don't mix -- which I have seen someone do in this forum, sadly -- let me point out GTAV and Watch_Dogs as examples. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kaughst Nyain San General Tso's Alliance 612	Posted - 2014.09.28 06:38:00 - [6] - Quote I really hope that we can travel across districts in a open world setting on foot or at least in a vehicle. You know you have at least thought about cow tipping. They know, and they're out to settle the score.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4435	Posted - 2014.09.30 19:42:00 - [7] - Quote There was plenty of Open World PVP in WOW on any server I played onGÇª I made sure of it! But seriously, did you play on a PVP server, or are you judging World PVP based on how it was on a PVE server? Not to mention the fact you canGÇÖt loot another player in WOW, while you will be able to steel someone elseGÇÖs salvage in Legion. PVP in Salvage districts will be profitable, just like ganking people in EVE can be profitable. Instanced battles give you a fight whenever you want it, on a momentGÇÖs notice. Instanced battles in Legion will give EVE players something to do when there is nothing going on in EVE. And finally, since all dropsuits, weapons, and equipment will come from the Salvage districts, supply and demand dictates that if everyone is doing Instanced battles all the time instead of Salvaging, the cost of their gear will go through the roof, and Salvaging will become immensely profitable. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Ghural The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 321	Posted - 2014.10.01 11:13:00 - [8] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: And finally, since all dropsuits, weapons, and equipment will come from the Salvage districts, supply and demand dictates that if everyone is doing Instanced battles all the time instead of Salvaging, the cost of their gear will go through the roof, and Salvaging will become immensely profitable. May not be true. I expect that militia weapons will always be available. And we are yet to see what microtransaction route CCP will take (BPOs for Aurum etc). Its hard to speculate with so little information available
Jack Boost Zarena Family 468	Posted - 2014.10.01 11:38:00 - [9] - Quote 1. Acces for instatnt PvP in quarters 2. Make existing PvP instant battles like VR 'gambling' room with this rooles: - choose battle ->play - for each loosed stuff (dropsuit, eq, vehicles etc) withdraw ISK from accont equal for stuff price. No isk no play. You dont loose 'real' stuff. - OFFICER WEAPON/STUFF NOT ALLOWED - go to field with it :) Pros: You can 'test' stuff for money You dont loose items (but isk) - this will be more acceptable for new players Want isk? : go real fight Want test extremely gear: go real fight Instant battles. Cons: Any? Not much time left...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4447	Posted - 2014.10.01 11:56:00 - [10] - Quote Ghural wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: And finally, since all dropsuits, weapons, and equipment will come from the Salvage districts, supply and demand dictates that if everyone is doing Instanced battles all the time instead of Salvaging, the cost of their gear will go through the roof, and Salvaging will become immensely profitable. May not be true. I expect that militia weapons will always be available. And we are yet to see what microtransaction route CCP will take (BPOs for Aurum etc). Its hard to speculate with so little information available Oh, I certainly agree on the Militia gear. There are any number of reasons to insure there is a stable supply and price on Militia gear. But that in no way diminishes my point. People will want better gear than the Militia stuff, and if they canGÇÖt afford to buy better gear, they will go to the Salvaging grounds to get it, or at least to get stuff to sell to be able to afford the stuff they want. If lots of people are salvaging, then prices will drop, and the payout from instanced battles will seem really high, but if less people are salvaging, then the prices will rise and the profit from selling salvaged items will become much higher than what you can earn through instanced battles. As for the AUR model, people who fit their suits primarily off of AUR gear will be a small minority. Neither Militia gear, nor AUR items will have a significant impact on the market. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Ghural The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 321	Posted - 2014.10.01 12:24:00 - [11] - Quote Your speculating based on un-confimed details and assumptions, that's what diminishes your point. Quote: People who fit their suits primarily off AUR gear will be a small minority WIthout details on the microtransaction model, or data on existing AUR purchasing behaviour, you can't make this assumption. Quote: Neither Militia gear, nor AUR items will have a significant impact on the market. See above. Also if buying AUR items and then selling them for ISK becomes a cost-effective way for players to obtain ISK. We might see a hell of a lot of AUR items on the market. It's not your fault though. It's precisely why CCP needs to communicate with us more, or we will end up spending the next few months (years?) endlessly spinning the wheels of speculation, getting annoyed with each other, and getting exactly nowhere.
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3406	Posted - 2014.10.01 12:46:00 - [12] - Quote This is why I felt the legion section should be closed until it's needed again or we are going to be so bitter we are going to eat the first dev who comes in here Gÿ¦ You can never have to many chaples -Templar True adamance
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3292	Posted - 2014.10.01 15:10:00 - [13] - Quote Open world pvp died in wow because it had no point. There were no resources in the open world worth fighting for, anything that was good to have was locked away in instances, safely away from other players. In battlegrounds you would be able to farm for pvp ranks far faster (the only currency worth a damn back when BGs first came out) to buy the high end pvp gear. Its not a case of 'instant battles' killing off world pvp. It was a case of risk vs reward. There was all risk and no reward in open world pvp. It died due to poor game design and little else. In Legion, you can fight instant battles, get some cash and lose a few suits. In the open world, you participate in content that generates new items for people to use. This would be the exact opposite. If they balance it correctly, then all of the good gear will have to be acquired in low/null sec open world areas. Enough reward to justify the risk of open world pvp. Sure you can farm isk in instant battles to buy that gear as well, but those items you buy have to come from somewhere. With proper game design not only can open world and instanced pvp exist together, they can even be complimentary. With the current plans they've discussed, its looking great. Instant battles generate isk to buy the items farmed in open world content. In both types of content they are actually enriched by the existence of the other. You could have solely open world pvp where you farm items to be able to farm more items but it becomes self defeating rather quickly. You can have only instant battles, like dust, and a npc controlled market, but we already have that and know that while it works, its also not ideal. Both of these systems together should give a nice variety of game play so that people who are tired of instant matches can wander around the sandbox for nice goodies and people tired of wandering around LF a fight can hop into an instant battle and get right into the action. The only worry is economic balance, they need to make both systems as rewarding as their risk. A player only/driven market should help that significantly. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9613	Posted - 2014.10.02 01:02:00 - [14] - Quote ZDub 303 wrote: A player only/driven market should help that significantly. Not to mention that this would also introduce a new profession into Legion in which players make a profit from trade/marketeering rather than from selling away what salvage they find on the battlefield. Just buy any salvage in bulk and at low prices from players who are just fire-selling their junk and then turn it around with a marked up price to make a profit from players who need the gear now rather than later. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Kincate Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 78	Posted - 2014.10.09 10:55:00 - [15] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Legion has the ability to bring open world FPS play to New Eden, but the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that it's incompatible with instant battles. Case 1: WoW battlegrounds vs open world PvP. Once battlegrounds were added, open world PvP withered away quickly. Why wander around the world for a chance to fight when you're guaranteed one by queueing up? Case 2: the prototype for instanced PvP in Eve is meeting stiff opposition for similar reasons; with instant pvp on tap, why roam? The only 'instant battle' I can see working is the ones made popular by Red Vs Blue in Eve. * Fights occur with no matchmaking or maximum number of participants * Fights always occur in a handful of linked systems instead of everywhere * The fights are governed by existing game mechanics instead of making massive exceptions for them * Losses are real (this would be a given in Legion as well, but is worth stating) * income is negligible. Unless you fly the cheapest of ships and don't die often, it's an income-negative proposition. In fact, it's more like a hobby that your Eve player engages in; fit up a few dozen frigates, lose them gloriously, then go back to your day job. tldr; Legion is in danger of its open world being gutted if there's even an option of lobby-based instant battles. I agree, instant battle would kill what Legion is supposed to be. With one exception! Consider much like PS or PS2 there is an option to quick join battle but what you are doing is spawning at a spawn point someone placed during a battle someone initiated. I could see something similar to this working. 1st Legionhare
Hawk-eye Occultus ARKOMBlNE 386	Posted - 2014.10.09 16:11:00 - [16] - Quote Kincate wrote: Consider much like PS or PS2 there is an option to quick join battle but what you are doing is spawning at a spawn point someone placed during a battle someone initiated. I could see something similar to this working. I can see all the trolls frothing at the mouths... In the beginning...


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