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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3105
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Posted - 2014.09.09 15:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Very interesting idea. Potential for abuse though depending on how its set up.
What would stop a group of players with large amounts from ISK, mass stockpiling high end gear one week, thus driving the price up extremely high the next week, and then terrorizing players with Proto gear that the players can not afford because of the price hike?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3106
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote: There is nothing saying that it couldn't be capped, something like "no more than a 25% increase/decrease per week" or who is to say that the inflated prices on the market increase the NPC corporations profit margins which allows them to increase pay somewhat?
It is far from a "complete feature" at this point, but there is no need for you to be such a negative nancy about it.
Like I said as long as proper care is taken to prevent abuse, it could be interesting. In situations like this you need to ask yourself "WWGD?" or rather, What Would the Goons Do?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3112
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think it really restricts gameplay any more than a normal market would. Hell if anything if the price increase is capped, that's going to be more stable than an EVE market.
I mean if we had a player market, it would be 'restrictive' in that highly popular items would be more expensive, simply because producers can charge more for them because demand is high. If anything a simulated economy kinda helps people get used to the idea of price changes, and is easier to ease them into a true player economy.
SO yeah, as long as the idea is properly balanced and avenues for abuse are accounted for before implementation, this could be pretty slick. I'll give you a +1.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3112
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Just keep in mind supply vs demand.
So you're looking at one side of the equation... demand. As demand for an item increases, at a constant supply, its price would naturally increase. Your idea would, in theory, simulate this to some degree.
but... what about supply? In any market structure, EVE's included, if the demand for an item continues to increase then the market will react by (eventually) producing more of that item.
In fact, items with extremely high demand, end up saturating and the price goes very low as a result. People will produce for less per item profit if they can push massive volumes.
A good example would be the store we all love to hate... Wal Mart.
This idea goes the other way as well... as demand for an item plummets.. the price doesn't necessarily plummet as a result. Most producers will just stop producing it and the few that will, will produce in limited runs for high per-item profit at lower overall revenue due to lower volume of sales.
This is also why you have 'trade hubs' in eve and why the price for most items outside of those trade hubs is higher.
How would you simulate production changes and variable supply into this model? It could become very complex (and not worth the time to implement) or it could just be something a third year economics undergrad could write up in a day... hard for me to say/know... I'm not an economist.
Well essentially how it would need to work is that increase in demand would cause an increase in price. In a normal market situation like EVE, high prices increases the desire to produce that item, and thus supply would increase over time. So you would need to have a decay function where 'supply' would increase and thus lower overall price. So while prices spike from high demand, they price would slowly decay over time even if demand remained high because supply catches up.
It's also imporant to look at supply and demand as a function of every item in the game as a whole. We have to assume that supply is finite, and if they're producing more of item A, they're then producing less of item B. Cheaper items are of course, less expensive to produce however so you can't look at it as purely an equal exchange; you need to adjust for relative cost. If you produce 1 less proto suit, you can probably produce 10-15 standard ones, so the supply equation becomes complicated at that point.
The hardest part is the balance. If the purchase of a certain suit becomes expensive, you need to make sure that people will shift to something cheaper...this is going to be primarily influenced by the ISK payouts from battles. That really comes down to market data though but I dont have access to so I can't really comment much on it.
But yes you're right, it gets extremely complicated very quickly. And people wonder why CCP has an economist on staff for EVE...
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3112
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:The thing to bear in mind with an idea like this, is that you'd either have some dude at CCP having to set the prices on every item in the game every week (a full-time job), or they'd have to develop an entirely new method for updating the price on items in the backend.
Either way, it's a much larger investment than it may seem.
I love the idea, but my immediate thought on viewing it, is that there are smaller time investment projects than can reap far better rewards for the players than this. The first thing we should ask is 'how does this affect new players?', they are the lifeblood of the game. Most of us would simply shrug off the extra cost or just keep using aurum. What about new players?. What is the actual point exactly in implementing a mechanic that simply keeps vets cosy and screws newer players?.
Im not exactly sure how a market system screws new players? Assuming that you can simulate a market to behave 100% like say, EVE, it would be self regulating. If **** gets too expensive, people just won't buy it, and thus demand and prices drop until people are willing to buy it.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3112
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:
The prices going up wouldn't affect new players?.
It wouldn't be a market either. Just a mechanic where x weapon is being used x amount, do therefore it goes up x amount.
It wouldn't be a market.
Well as I pointed out before in a previous post, maybe you missed it, you would need to address prices going down for other items as part of an overall supply/demand scheme. If A increases and B decreases, eventually people will start using more of B which will raise the price of B and decrease A. This is typical in macroeconomics, and while the market can flux, overall its trend it towards equilibrium.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3113
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Posted - 2014.09.09 16:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:
The prices going up wouldn't affect new players?.
It wouldn't be a market either. Just a mechanic where x weapon is being used x amount, do therefore it goes up x amount.
It wouldn't be a market.
Well as I pointed out before in a previous post, maybe you missed it, you would need to address prices going down for other items as part of an overall supply/demand scheme. If A increases and B decreases, eventually people will start using more of B which will raise the price of B and decrease A. This is typical in macroeconomics, and while the market can flux, overall its trend it towards equilibrium. Except in dust, us vets would never care about a price rise so its broken from the get go. I hear what you are saying but its only new/newer players that will be affected by this, we will continue spamming and directly affect those players with a slice of laughing at them.
Well heres my point. Most vets use Advanced and Proto gear, that's just the nature of the beast, this means that the demand for standard gear would go down, thus lowering the price. Since most new players are running standard gear, they would actually have an easier time.
The point I was trying to make is that if you work in a supply-side situation, the ability to 'produce' standard gear is much higher than proto gear. This means that its easy to quickly supply cheap gear to meet the markets need, and that the loss of a sale of proto gear means a lot of standard gear can be produced if needed.
So essentially the lower tiered items are more resistant to market fluxations because the sale of a single standard item has mess of an impact on the overal supply, whereas a proto item has far more weight.
Again, I'm an engineer not an economist so I'm by no means an expert on macroeconomics haha, but I do know a bit.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3118
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:If this got implemented, I buy my aurum items in stacks of 600-1000.
So that right there is fked unless aurum wouldn't factor?. Yeah, I don't think it should include aurum items. That would not go over well if they suddenly increased dramatically in price. It would just come off as a money grab. Besides, I think that the fact aurum is actually correlated with real money brings an aspect of risk that is not present with ISK transactions. I think part of what makes this idea great is that it would create much greater risk/reward as the most popular items will also be the highest cost items.
AUR items admittedly are the real wrench in the works because you get risky if you start making those change, and if they don't change, you're guaranteeing that high demand items are better purchased with AUR than ISK. So that is a major problem.
EVE gets away with it because AUR items cannot be produced and are unique items that cannot normally be purchased otherwise. But if you could buy in-game items with AUR like ships and whatnot....well that gets messy very quickly.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3118
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:
I see what you are saying aye.
I know a fair bit as well and none of this would have a negative impact on me ever, I just care about the newbs.
I guess it depends on how you look at it.
Nah I hear ya man, I'm always trying to look out for the newbies too. Dust is overly harsh on them.
Suffice it to say free markets are extremely complicated and difficult to track, and even harder to simulate accurately, especially in a game setting.
Overall its an interesting idea, not sure if it's really feasible for Dust but its an interesting idea nonetheless. Its just one of those things thats VERY difficult to get right, and getting it wrong would be catastrophic. If it could be done right? Freaking sweet. Just be careful moving forward.
Regardless it's cool stuff to discuss, and its good that people are thinking about stuff like this.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3121
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:I have had hate mail from spamming proto aurum and going about 9/24 before lol. They started in proto and ended up in bpos while I still mindlessly spammed their face.
Lol I have the EVE mentality "I just cost that guy ______ and I only spent ______!!" I love when people use AUR, makes that kill taste even sweeter. And I always start in BPOs and and in them. Zero Fucks given about my KDR, and Im a cheap bastard so BPOs suit me just fine...I always win the ISK war.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3125
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:I have had hate mail from spamming proto aurum and going about 9/24 before lol. They started in proto and ended up in bpos while I still mindlessly spammed their face. Lol I have the EVE mentality "I just cost that guy ______ and I only spent ______!!" I love when people use AUR, makes that kill taste even sweeter. And I always start in BPOs and and in them. Zero Fucks given about my KDR, and Im a cheap bastard so BPOs suit me just fine...I always win the ISK war. Its relative though. Iv spammed proto aurum since beta to never care about dying. Lack of matchmaking is p!swing in my cornflakes right now though.
*shrugs* To each his own. I'm kinda the same way with my BPOs. I enjoy the game more when I can be more aggressive and die more often without going in the red, plus I prefer to spend my AUR on boosters instead of items.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3125
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:I have had hate mail from spamming proto aurum and going about 9/24 before lol. They started in proto and ended up in bpos while I still mindlessly spammed their face. Lol I have the EVE mentality "I just cost that guy ______ and I only spent ______!!" I love when people use AUR, makes that kill taste even sweeter. And I always start in BPOs and and in them. Zero Fucks given about my KDR, and Im a cheap bastard so BPOs suit me just fine...I always win the ISK war. Its relative though. Iv spammed proto aurum since beta to never care about dying. Lack of matchmaking is p!swing in my cornflakes right now though. *shrugs* To each his own. I'm kinda the same way with my BPOs. I enjoy the game more when I can be more aggressive and die more often without going in the red, plus I prefer to spend my AUR on boosters instead of items. Hehe, I run my bpos for the beta swag effect lol.
I fit my Yellow Biotic BPO. That's BetaSwag that people don't even know I'm using.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3127
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Posted - 2014.09.09 17:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
TechMechMeds wrote:I don't even know of that swag, that's how swag it is lol.
Real men Hull Tank and use Yellow Biotics.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3128
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Posted - 2014.09.09 20:46:00 -
[14] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: The hardest part is the balance. If the purchase of a certain suit becomes expensive, you need to make sure that people will shift to something cheaper...this is going to be primarily influenced by the ISK payouts from battles. That really comes down to market data though but I dont have access to so I can't really comment much on it.
But yes you're right, it gets extremely complicated very quickly. And people wonder why CCP has an economist on staff for EVE...
Exactly. From a very high level perspective everything you say is pretty straightforward, and its what you would expect of most players behavior sans environmental aspects (like certain raw material shortages due to x event). But this next point is where I think, as neat as this idea might be, it no longer makes any sense. Finding a correct set of models numbers to essentially mimic the supply side of player/person behavior is not a simple task. There are much better things the few devs working on Dust can do to better impact player experience I think. As neat as it is, I would say this type of feature just needs to wait for Legion, where a true player market (supply and demand) can be implemented.
Yep, totally hear ya. Its difficult because even supply is not constant in a true market. Sure supply is allocated differently over time, but the base supply can also fluctuate based on market conditions. Its easier then its a real market because it adjusts itself in real time, but trying to keep up and artificially balance it all would either require an insane automated system, or as Xel said someone doing it full tie.
GIven a different situation with development resources I could see it, but sadly we're very limited. It's a really cool idea, I'll give the OP that, but sadly I dont think we could properly implement it...and if we were gonna take the time to do it, it would need to be done right, and that's damn hard to do.
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