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My reasoning on why the AR and aSCR suck

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BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2973	Posted - 2014.08.31 21:13:00 - [1] - Quote Quick damage comparison of automatic rifles vs a suit with 500/500 HP. Duvolle Assault rifle 125/90 33.99 800 RPM 60 = 2039.4 DPC 0.88 TTKS 1.22 TTKA 2.11 TTK Kaalakiota Rail rifle 90/125 51.70 461.54 42 = 2171.4 DPC 1.40 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.4 Ishukone Assault rail rifle 90/125 40 600 42 = 1680 1.38 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.38 Six kin combat rifle 85 (95)/130 (125) 21 1200 68 = 1428 DPC 1.25 TTKS 0.95 TTA Total time to kill 2.2 1.40 TTKS 0.91 TTKA Total time to kill 2.31 (after fix) Carthum assault scrambler 80/135 35.75 705.88 72 = 2574 51 (with OH) = 1823.5 1.49 TTKA 0.88 TTKS Total time to kill 2.37 From what I can see is that the Duvolle has the best time to kill by a lot, while the rail rifle has the worst. This in theory is balanced. Surprisingly the Assault scrambler should have a better time to kill than a rail rifle, although slight and the time to kill for shields on a scrambler rifle should be equal to that of a duvolle or very close. Another thing I found surprising is that the rail rifles both have an equal time to kill vs armor even though the Assault variant has a higher DPS figure. Lastly I find it very interesting that the AR and aSCR, the two most unused weapons, happen to be shield killers. Aside from that my question is why does the Assault scrambler, and Assault rifle suck so much? And why are the rail rifle and combar rifles much better than both of these regardless of TTK? I believe the reason we are having problems with some rifles, and some sidearms, regardless of DPS. Is that some weapons are able to apply their damage better than others it seems pretty straight forward reading it but if you give it a little deeper thought it wont be so obvious. Regardless of how the weapons are buffed (AR and aSCR) they are still going to be terrible, unless massively buffed, due to their damage application being bad. For example the assault rail rifle and combat rifle have much better dispersion and hipfire than the AR. While the aSCR has a lot of side and a little bit of upward kick, at long ranges it misses very often and the kick is very unmanigable. Another problem is that most shield suit use some form of plating and due to the high HP of plates it creates a larger buffer, which severely slows down how shield weapons apply their damage, while the low shield HP of armor suits means that after shields are gone armor weapon can apply their damage indefinitely; the way proficiency skills work further adds to this problem. Conclusion (tl;dr): I know believe that before buffing these two weaponsvia buffing ROF and damage etc the damage application of all rifles should be looked at first i.e kick, hip fire accuracy, and dispersion. Hybrid tanking be resolved, and proficiency skills be reworked. After all this I highly believe all weapons should fall into place without having to touch their damage or rof. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2975	Posted - 2014.08.31 22:55:00 - [2] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: \o/ mathematics! It's OP. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2975	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:19:00 - [3] - Quote Maiden selena MORTIMOR wrote: A scr has no kick it's a graphic only does not effect accuracy Actually it does, maybe not the scr, but the aSCR has very noticeable kick and by kick I mean it actually IS missing. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2975	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:23:00 - [4] - Quote bamboo x wrote: you lost me on TTKS/A Time to kill Shields TIme to kill Armor Basically the time to kill for x weapon to kill 500 armor and 500 shields. I like to look at a weapons DPS based on these figures better than overall DPS due to proficiency bonuses etc. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2976	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:40:00 - [5] - Quote bamboo x wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: bamboo x wrote: you lost me on TTKS/A Time to kill Shields TIme to kill Armor Basically the time to kill for x weapon to kill 500 armor and 500 shields. I like to look at a weapons DPS based on these figures better than overall DPS due to proficiency bonuses etc. So you are assuming all proficiencies are 5? Yeah this thread is starting to make sense to me now. Basically the dispersion is too high on the AR. Maybe Gal Assault IS worth a try... I always just assumed it wasn't. But after seeing this thread... I have Gallente Assault 5, and my AR maxed and it still sucks supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2976	Posted - 2014.08.31 23:49:00 - [6] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Range is a major key for the AR, that and the crappy hipfire compared to the other rifles. The AScR...I got no clue. Probably the low RoF and dmg when compared to the ScR, it can't compensate for the 20/20 profile. If the ARs hipfire and dispersion was switched with the CR or RR it would become such a better weapon instantly, although the range is extremely short specially when it competes in range with the HMG. I use the AScR every one in a while, my only problem with it is that it has unpredictable kick and when fighting armor bricks I either run or run and die or die. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2978	Posted - 2014.09.01 00:55:00 - [7] - Quote JARREL THOMAS wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Quick damage comparison of automatic rifles vs a suit with 500/500 HP. Duvolle Assault rifle 125/90 33.99 damage per shot 800 RPM 60 = 2039.4 Damage per clip 0.88 TTK Shields 1.22 TTK Armor 2.11 TTK Kaalakiota Rail rifle 90/125 51.70 461.54 42 = 2171.4 DPC 1.40 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.4 Ishukone Assault rail rifle 90/125 40 600 42 = 1680 1.38 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.38 Six kin combat rifle 85 (95)/130 (125) 21 1200 68 = 1428 DPC 1.25 TTKS 0.95 TTA Total time to kill 2.2 1.40 TTKS 0.91 TTKA Total time to kill 2.31 (after fix) Carthum assault scrambler 80/135 35.75 705.88 72 = 2574 51 (with OH) = 1823.5 1.49 TTKA 0.88 TTKS Total time to kill 2.37 From what I can see is that the Duvolle has the best time to kill by a lot, while the rail rifle has the worst. This in theory is balanced. Surprisingly the Assault scrambler should have a better time to kill than a rail rifle, although slight and the time to kill for shields on a scrambler rifle should be equal to that of a duvolle or very close. Another thing I found surprising is that the rail rifles both have an equal time to kill vs armor even though the Assault variant has a higher DPS figure. Lastly I find it very interesting that the AR and aSCR, the two most unused weapons, happen to be shield killers. Aside from that my question is why does the Assault scrambler, and Assault rifle suck so much? And why are the rail rifle and combar rifles much better than both of these regardless of TTK? I believe the reason we are having problems with some rifles, and some sidearms, regardless of DPS. Is that some weapons are able to apply their damage better than others it seems pretty straight forward reading it but if you give it a little deeper thought it wont be so obvious. Regardless of how the weapons are buffed (AR and aSCR) they are still going to be terrible, unless massively buffed, due to their damage application being bad. For example the assault rail rifle and combat rifle have much better dispersion and hipfire than the AR, I bet if you switches the AR's hipfire and dispersion stats with the RR or CR it would become much better. The aSCR has a lot of side and a little bit of upward kick, at long ranges it misses very often and the kick is very unmanigable, and the damage profile makes it hard to use vs dual tanked shield suits. Another problem is that most shield suit use some form of plating and due to the high HP of plates it creates a larger buffer, which severely slows down how shield weapons apply their damage, while the low shield HP of armor suits (even while dual tanked) means that after shields are gone armor weapons can apply their damage indefinitely; the way proficiency skills work further adds to this problem. Conclusion (tl;dr): I know believe that before buffing these two weapons buffing ROF and damage etc the damage application of all rifles should be looked at first i.e kick, hip fire accuracy, and dispersion. Hybrid tanking be resolved, and proficiency skills be reworked. After all this I highly believe all weapons should fall into place without having to touch their damage or rof. It's because shields are so weak after the ar or asr destroy the shield there's still armor left which they are blot the best at destroying while the other two are meant for that and since shield is so weak they just tear through the sheilds Not really now a days most armor suits don't have more armor than shield suits have shields, infact the only suits which have a lot of armor are Amarr suits, heavies, and some scouts, but most Gallente suits run between 500-600 armor while most Caldari suits run between 480 and 560. Brick tanking armor has become very difficult due to the very high fitting costs and speed penalties. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2978	Posted - 2014.09.01 01:06:00 - [8] - Quote bamboo x wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: I have Gallente Assault 5, and my AR maxed and it still sucks Maybe I will be doomed to never use the assault rifle as a slayer again I haven't used the AR in a while, heck none of my fits use an AR just rail rifles lol. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2980	Posted - 2014.09.01 11:39:00 - [9] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Range is a major key for the AR, that and the crappy hipfire compared to the other rifles. The AScR...I got no clue. Probably the low RoF and dmg when compared to the ScR, it can't compensate for the 20/20 profile. If the ARs hipfire and dispersion was switched with the CR or RR it would become such a better weapon instantly, although the range is extremely short specially when it competes in range with the HMG. I use the AScR every one in a while, my only problem with it is that it has unpredictable kick and when fighting armor bricks I either run or run and die or die. Yeah, every shot counts when your optimal in 10 meters more then a HMG xD Seriously, all the ARs engagements happen with 40 meters AKA fatty territory. Of course it's gonna get out done. Yes but CCP refused to buff the range, and nerfing the range of the hmg would just cause heavies to cry. So when it comes to range the AR is screwed. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2981	Posted - 2014.09.01 12:47:00 - [10] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: BL4CKST4R wrote: Quick damage comparison of automatic rifles vs a suit with 500/500 HP. Duvolle Assault rifle 125/90 33.99 damage per shot 800 RPM 60 = 2039.4 Damage per clip 0.88 TTK Shields 1.22 TTK Armor 2.11 TTK Kaalakiota Rail rifle 90/125 51.70 461.54 42 = 2171.4 DPC 1.40 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.4 Ishukone Assault rail rifle 90/125 40 600 42 = 1680 1.38 TTKS 1.00 TTKA Total time to kill 2.38 Six kin combat rifle 85 (95)/130 (125) 21 1200 68 = 1428 DPC 1.25 TTKS 0.95 TTA Total time to kill 2.2 1.40 TTKS 0.91 TTKA Total time to kill 2.31 (after fix) Carthum assault scrambler 80/135 35.75 705.88 72 = 2574 51 (with OH) = 1823.5 1.49 TTKA 0.88 TTKS Total time to kill 2.37 From what I can see is that the Duvolle has the best time to kill by a lot, while the rail rifle has the worst. This in theory is balanced. Surprisingly the Assault scrambler should have a better time to kill than a rail rifle, although slight and the time to kill for shields on a scrambler rifle should be equal to that of a duvolle or very close. Another thing I found surprising is that the rail rifles both have an equal time to kill vs armor even though the Assault variant has a higher DPS figure. Lastly I find it very interesting that the AR and aSCR, the two most unused weapons, happen to be shield killers. Aside from that my question is why does the Assault scrambler, and Assault rifle suck so much? And why are the rail rifle and combar rifles much better than both of these regardless of TTK? I believe the reason we are having problems with some rifles, and some sidearms, regardless of DPS. Is that some weapons are able to apply their damage better than others it seems pretty straight forward reading it but if you give it a little deeper thought it wont be so obvious. Regardless of how the weapons are buffed (AR and aSCR) they are still going to be terrible, unless massively buffed, due to their damage application being bad. For example the assault rail rifle and combat rifle have much better dispersion and hipfire than the AR, I bet if you switches the AR's hipfire and dispersion stats with the RR or CR it would become much better. The aSCR has a lot of side and a little bit of upward kick, at long ranges it misses very often and the kick is very unmanigable, and the damage profile makes it hard to use vs dual tanked shield suits. Another problem is that most shield suit use some form of plating and due to the high HP of plates it creates a larger buffer, which severely slows down how shield weapons apply their damage, while the low shield HP of armor suits (even while dual tanked) means that after shields are gone armor weapons can apply their damage indefinitely; the way proficiency skills work further adds to this problem. Conclusion (tl;dr): I know believe that before buffing these two weapons via buffing ROF and damage etc, the damage application of all rifles should be looked at first i.e kick, hip fire accuracy, and dispersion. Hybrid tanking be resolved, and proficiency skills be reworked. After all this I highly believe all weapons should fall into place without having to touch their damage or rof. you didnt have to start a thread, ccp is aware of this and are buffing ALL the AR's and the AScR while also nerfing the normal ScR in delta Then you have failed to understand the thread, it's not about buffing it by increasing the damage or rof... yet again. It's that the guns are theoretically balanced already but their problem is that applying that damage on them is difficult. Without a Gallente assault the AR has embarrassing hipfire and dispersion. In fact the dispersion is so bad that with a proto gall assault it's hipfire and dispersion is about the same as a rail rifles. The rail rifle shouldn't be so good at what an AR is supposed to do, same with a CR. So unless ccp buffed my AR into a mini balac's gar it's performance will still remain shameful. Now the aSCR performs well as a cqc rifle but it's kick and damage proficiency ruins it when fighting armor tanks or dual tanks. Before the proficiency skill change the aSCR was a well used weapon but now after the shields are gone it becomes very difficult to use. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2981	Posted - 2014.09.01 13:20:00 - [11] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: I don't know about the AR, but the ASCR's problem is the fact that most people armor tank and it is a shield killer. "but wait, then why doesn't the normal scrambler have the same issue?" Well let's see what makes up for this disadvantage for the main Scrambler: -high possible DPS -high alpha -charged shot bonus damage + headshot bonus -extra range -insanely accurate The assault scrambler has nothing going for it. It's not better than the standard one in any ways except for the fact it can fire faster...and that doesn't even equate to more DPS, just allows it to apply dps over time for longer. But here's the kicker The Assault scrambler has similar kick to the RR, and because there is no way to reduce the kick of this weapon, you're essentially missing about 1/3 of your shots at longer range. As the longest range assault weapon with a scope, you'd think that it would have some sort of an advantage, but it doesn't. So to recap, the ASCR sucks because: -Most suits have more armor than shields (less hp to be affected by prof bonus) -Less range, less damage, less dps than normal scrambler -So much kick at range that it is only useful in CQC, where other weapons are much better options. I think the first that that can be done for this weapon, along with the AR is reverting the proficiency bonus back from 15% to shields/armor to 5/10% weapon damage. With this change the aSCR won't hit a brick wall when fighting armor that much. As for its long range capabilities I believe it sucks at long range because when it was created ccp changes their definition of what the word assault meant, thus the aSCR was made into a short range rifle with low damage drop off. To fix that side a decision must be made on what it's role is, a cqc assault weapon or a long range breach weapon. Although I do disagree slightly on its kick, it's more similar to an assault rail rifle although slightly less manageable. The kick on a rail rifle is very longitudinal, with little horizontal kick. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 2981	Posted - 2014.09.01 13:49:00 - [12] - Quote Lightning35 Delta514 wrote: I believe they don't suck it's just that most people run armor than shields. And both the ar and asr are meant to cut down through shields. So that's not so good. Ok. WHAT IF THE AR got it's damage bonuse to +0%/-0%. Doing the same damage the whole way through. After all it is a hybrid weapon so I don't see much how it would be bad. If that won't happen because gallente are supposed to do more damage to shields, then try +5%/-5%. Then give it a small buff. As for the asr, I was thinking, since gallente and caldari have a 10/10 bonus and the Amarr have +20/-20 while minmatar have -5/+10 (which is trying to be fixed to 10/10) why not keep the minmatar as is and give the Amarr +20/-10. That way the gal/cal have there bonuse towards each other and so do the Amarr. The only thing with making lasers 20/-10 is that the scrambler would be the most POWERFULL weapon now, doing more damage to armor now without giving it a buff. I think changing the prof bonuses would have this same effect without having to skew or change the damage profiles. Specially when the ACR is getting a new profile of 15/15. Bad things happen when the damage profile provides a net bonus like the old explosive bonus and the CAR bonus. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3219	Posted - 2014.10.20 21:17:00 - [13] - Quote Da hell this is a 2 month old thread supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

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