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ARF 1049
The Phoenix Federation
123
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
What makes a weapon OP? The damage it puts out? The amount of damage in it's magazine? It's damage profile? The suit it's on? Or is it the players individual skill? People complain about getting shredded by combat rifles and burst HMG's with the occasional ScR or other post... But is it truly because these weapons are OP?
I saw a nova knife is OP post... How the hell does that work it has 2.5m of range and yes incredible damage but the amount of skill it takes... You don't see people running 44/1 with knives, and 99/100 they don't tank knives, and if your getting knifed most of the time your staying in an area and he snuck up behind you most of the time they can't just run at you or pick you off at range like other weapons...
Weapon damage type is even all the way through... Accept projectile which should be exactly the same type of effect as a fragmentation explosive because they basically are the same type of effect, supersonic metal.. And then would reflect racially like the hybrid weapons do. Of course we need new heavy weapons to be able to reinforce this function.
Tanking... Armor tanking is superior right now, and shield tanking sucks... Shield tanking should go 60-70-80 as to have a use to run shield weapons over armor every time, I know people would scream OP for that much health but... You could also make it so all shield specific suits have a % bonus per level to shield cal gets 8% per level! minmi gets 5% for all suits in those races.
The problem is the shield armor conundrum, there is more armor so armor weapon A is doing 40 to shield 50 to armor... But there is less shield so shield weapon S is doing 40 to shield then only 35 to armor... So once it gets through the shield... The hard part has just begun while weapon A is doing the same to shield but since it has to do more to armor because there is more... Which leaves us in an endless loop...
"In rust you trust, so in rust you shall die."
*blows minmatar's face off with TT-3...
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
3621
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
That it is so far superior to other weapons in such a variety of circumstances that it out performs other weapons in their intended role, and vastly dwarfs other weapons in usage.
Edit: Agree on NKs. They just got much more viable, so people are seeing them more. To them more deaths means more OP.
You can always tell a Millford Minja
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2394
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Blaming the weapon when they should be looking at the delivery platform.
Hint: we call them dropsuits. |
Gemini Cuspid
127
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
The thing that makes the idea of how something is overpowered is not just how it excels but itself but the combination of items that lead to its being OP. If you take scouts during the pre-hotfixes, the overpowered element of the scout wasn't the suit, the shotgun or the cloak but rather how combining all 3 allowed you to essentially run a whole map undetected and with little in the way to truly stop you. Even with a lower eHP overall at the time, the fact that an enemy had to see you and contend with the speed made it a true OP at the time.
A different argument pops up with combat and rail guns where, while listed as long and mid range weapons, can typically and easily outperform still all other weapons that compete in the same distance range. Most player even using a Duvolle and Creo AR will typically loose at a midrange battle with either of those two even with the buffs to AR's. The fact that even with a combat rifle and RR not intended for the shortrange gunfight in contrast to an AR, there's nothing in the game that either mitigates damage or decreases effectiveness; you can continue to use it with the same effectiveness at all distances.
Overall the big problem with "OP" is the combo of suits and weapons: this is still really a 2man game of scout and heavies. While the game landscape has changed with fewer people on shotgun, nova knives, CR, RR and maddys even, CCP still hasn't made this anything different than a 2-suit game with vehicles mixed in. |
ARF 1049
The Phoenix Federation
123
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Blaming the weapon when they should be looking at the delivery platform.
Hint: we call them dropsuits.
I was mainly eluding to drop suits not weapons I mean half my argument was about dropsuits... Read the whole thing before making an assumption.
"In rust you trust, so in rust you shall die."
*blows minmatar's face off with TT-3...
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Scheneighnay McBob
Cult of Gasai
5874
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:That it is so far superior to other weapons in such a variety of circumstances that it out performs other weapons in their intended role, and vastly dwarfs other weapons in usage.
Edit: Agree on NKs. They just got much more viable, so people are seeing them more. To them more deaths means more OP. This If a weapon breaks free of its intended role and is overshadowing other weapons, it's overpowered.
In this, we have to remember that we shouldn't be declaring "blasters are OP against infantry" or "forge guns are OP against vehicles", because that's an issue of AV vs vehicles altogether, with balance being the opinion of the developers. Instead, we could say things like "Forge guns are OP compared to swarms", or "Blasters are OP compared to missiles"
Weapons can only be compared to other weapons for balance. Just as dropsuits can only be compared to dropsuits, and turrets can only be compared to turrets.
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ARF 1049
The Phoenix Federation
124
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:One Eyed King wrote:That it is so far superior to other weapons in such a variety of circumstances that it out performs other weapons in their intended role, and vastly dwarfs other weapons in usage.
Edit: Agree on NKs. They just got much more viable, so people are seeing them more. To them more deaths means more OP. This If a weapon breaks free of its intended role and is overshadowing other weapons, it's overpowered. In this, we have to remember that we shouldn't be declaring "blasters are OP against infantry" or "forge guns are OP against vehicles", because that's an issue of AV vs vehicles altogether, with balance being the opinion of the developers. Instead, we could say things like "Forge guns are OP compared to swarms", or "Blasters are OP compared to missiles" Weapons can only be compared to other weapons for balance. Just as dropsuits can only be compared to dropsuits, and turrets can only be compared to turrets.
Which is why I didn't go into HMG's much, but I am comparing tanking to tanking damage type to damage type...
"In rust you trust, so in rust you shall die."
*blows minmatar's face off with TT-3...
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2397
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
HMGs would be a lot harder to use if people didn't insist on running at fatsuits like a buncha dumbasstic lemmings. |
Eruditus 920
Prodigy Ops
367
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Posted - 2014.08.29 20:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
What makes a weapon OP you ask?
Whatever is next in line.
Right now it's burst HMG.
It will always be something because players look for a scapegoat for their shortcomings. Mark my words, balance is a myth because people want to complain on the interweb.
CCP doesn't understand this. They will continue to diddle with their game because the player base is calling the shots and they don't play it or test it.
Wisdom is what you gain after you need it.
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saxonmish
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
326
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I make a weapon OP.
Problem solved you can close the thread now :P
SLAYER.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
357
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Anything that kills you with little to no effort... HMG, rail rifle, redline sniper... Large blasters... |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2400
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Posted - 2014.08.29 21:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Anything that kills you with little to no effort... HMG, rail rifle, redline sniper... Large blasters...
Hello lemming forum alt.
Please post on your main. |
Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
357
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:Anything that kills you with little to no effort... HMG, rail rifle, redline sniper... Large blasters... Hello lemming forum alt. Please post on your main.
Hello dipshit, I'm not an alt : ) |
Vitharr Foebane
Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V.
1842
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Derpty Derp wrote:Anything that kills you with little to no effort... HMG, rail rifle, redline sniper... Large blasters... Hello lemming forum alt. Please post on your main. Hello dipshit, I'm not an alt : ) his point still stands please do not run directly at a weapon nicknamed Death's Engine
Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV
I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
2400
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Posted - 2014.08.29 22:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote: his point still stands please do not run directly at a weapon nicknamed Death's Engine
Holy Moses someone got the joke.
I thought I was gonna have to hang a neon sign on it. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
4597
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
What makes a weapon OP?
1) Usage Statistics 2) Performance Statistics
Why the wall text?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Patrlck 56
490
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
. |
Onesimus Tarsus
is-a-Corporation
2554
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Unmatched lethality is OP. Every time.
K/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Red line snipers and tankers hate it.
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
11873
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
ARF 1049 wrote:What makes a weapon OP? The damage it puts out? The amount of damage in it's magazine? It's damage profile? The suit it's on? Or is it the players individual skill? People complain about getting shredded by combat rifles and burst HMG's with the occasional ScR or other post... But is it truly because these weapons are OP?
I saw a nova knife is OP post... How the hell does that work it has 2.5m of range and yes incredible damage but the amount of skill it takes... You don't see people running 44/1 with knives, and 99/100 they don't tank knives, and if your getting knifed most of the time your staying in an area and he snuck up behind you most of the time they can't just run at you or pick you off at range like other weapons...
Weapon damage type is even all the way through... Accept projectile which should be exactly the same type of effect as a fragmentation explosive because they basically are the same type of effect, supersonic metal.. And then would reflect racially like the hybrid weapons do. Of course we need new heavy weapons to be able to reinforce this function.
Tanking... Armor tanking is superior right now, and shield tanking sucks... Shield tanking should go 60-70-80 as to have a use to run shield weapons over armor every time, I know people would scream OP for that much health but... You could also make it so all shield specific suits have a % bonus per level to shield cal gets 8% per level! minmi gets 5% for all suits in those races.
The problem is the shield armor conundrum, there is more armor so armor weapon A is doing 40 to shield 50 to armor... But there is less shield so shield weapon S is doing 40 to shield then only 35 to armor... So once it gets through the shield... The hard part has just begun while weapon A is doing the same to shield but since it has to do more to armor because there is more... Which leaves us in an endless loop... Hahahahaha Still believe that shields are underpowered? That's cute.
Hint: You are not supposed to compete with armor in HP, you absolutely crush the regen rate and mobility of an armor tanker.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
557
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Excerpt:
Strategic collapse occurs when one strategy is so preferable that all players essentially choose it all the time. In the Magic tournament environment, looking for a variety of deck types is a good way to check the health of the tournament. A wider variety of types keeps the game balanced, and it's less enjoyable when there's perceived to be just one viable deck type. On the other hand, too many deck types is too confusing for most players.
Source:
Veteran of Strategically designing competitive games
This all was courtesy of Ghosts Chance originally, as he posted a thread topic about this earlier.
Essentially if everyone is spamming heavy hmgs and shotgun cloaked scouts there has been a strategic collapse and therefore a loss in game play, IE OP mechanics. |
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
215
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Posted - 2014.08.29 23:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
One earlier poster mentioned the delivery system. I think that bears more consideration. For example, you don't see Assaults running around with knives often. And if they did (im sure there are a few crazy guys out there doing just that) they wont be as effective as when used on a scout. The delivery system of the scout (and no this is not a cloak issue, cloak is fine) is the issue for some weapons. Staying with the KN example -- scouts hit box detection is wonky so lots of shots just pass through them. Were that not the case you'd only be dying to KNers that snuck up on you as opposed to those that ran 70 meters across an open field in plain view laughing all the way.
That's just one example though. I could make another with single shot ScR and autofire controllers. Or head glitching. I think we should be looking at the delivery systems more than the weapons. |
Onesimus Tarsus
is-a-Corporation
2555
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Posted - 2014.08.30 00:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Excerpt: Strategic collapse occurs when one strategy is so preferable that all players essentially choose it all the time. In the Magic tournament environment, looking for a variety of deck types is a good way to check the health of the tournament. A wider variety of types keeps the game balanced, and it's less enjoyable when there's perceived to be just one viable deck type. On the other hand, too many deck types is too confusing for most players. Source: Veteran of Strategically designing competitive gamesThis all was courtesy of Ghosts Chance originally, as he posted a thread topic about this earlier. Essentially if everyone is spamming heavy hmgs and shotgun cloaked scouts there has been a strategic collapse and therefore a loss in game play, IE OP mechanics. What I always say, and let the wailing and gnashing begin.
K/D(r) matchmaking fixes the whole game. Red line snipers and tankers hate it.
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