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Monkey MAC
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Posted - 2014.08.19 17:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Syeven Reed wrote:Every-other rifle can't pop round a corner and lay off a charged shot.
It's not exactly pinpoint aiming with auto-aim.
See point two.
Thanks. The scr cant be held down for spam Modded Contoller, it's not spamming if the weapon is already full-auto, it is its semi-autoHas overheat An incredibly genrous overheat that, will allow you to kill most suits without overheating. Plus charging a shot doesn't maintain the heat build up, meaning just before youmoverheat you charge up then wait till as late as possible to fire it off.No rifle in the game requires much aiming, aim assist doesn't apply to the scr alone No other rifle, gets shots doing 280 dmg, which gets aimed for them.At least my crap is objective, you are spouting rubbish sir. Yours is also horrendously biased.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3327
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Posted - 2014.08.19 22:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
The thing is, i don't see why people are so against a ROF nerf to the ScR, unless your abusing the weapon it shouldn't really be making a difference.
An AR at 35m range has 450 DPS A RR at 85m range has 391 DPS (this incidently is why the RR is so over powered)
Now to make it fair, the ScR should really be achieving about 420 DPS (I gave a little extra in retrospect of the damage profile), bearing in mind I haven't dropped it for the charge shot or anything.
With this DPS the ROF would have to be dropped from the current 705 RPM (11 Shots per Second), to 305 RPM (6 Shots per Second) or does this not sound reasonable?
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3327
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Posted - 2014.08.19 23:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:The thing is, i don't see why people are so against a ROF nerf to the ScR, unless your abusing the weapon it shouldn't really be making a difference.
An AR at 35m range has 450 DPS A RR at 85m range has 391 DPS (this incidently is why the RR is so over powered)
Now to make it fair, the ScR should really be achieving about 420 DPS (I gave a little extra in retrospect of the damage profile), bearing in mind I haven't dropped it for the charge shot or anything.
With this DPS the ROF would have to be dropped from the current 705 RPM (11 Shots per Second), to 305 RPM (6 Shots per Second) or does this not sound reasonable?
Pro gamers shoot an average of 6-7 shots per second. I dont see why any weapon should be able to fire faster..
Presicely, if ScR really is OP then this won't change it, if it's simply being abused it'll be cured overnight!
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3329
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Nocturnal Soul wrote:P14GU3 wrote: Video or it didnt happen. I have seen a video of a ScR on an amarr assault with a modded pad that only makes it 19 shots before it overheats. He also does 13 before overheat manually. If you can do 20-25 you are mashing the **** out of it without holding the controller in its normal position, which is hardly accurate.
It's honestly not that hard... for me, even on the militia front line fit I can get 18 shots off no bonus just skill and experience. Im not saying its hard, im sayin he will overheat before he gets 20 shots...
One of the guys posted video one with a modded controller ome without. The ROF was almost the same, under the turbo he got 24 shots under his max fire he got 20. It's possible because of the ScR's ddogy heat mechanics.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3329
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Posted - 2014.08.20 10:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: the ROF would have to be dropped from the current 705 RPM (11 Shots per Second), to 305 RPM (6 Shots per Second) or does this not sound reasonable? i see no reason why it should be lower than the glu-5 or duvolle tac which both have 500rpm So it can't achieve more than 420 DPS, EVER (with the exception to the charge shot) Though the GLU and Duvolle would be given the same treatment and be capped at 415 DPS which is achieved with 340 RPM (about 6 shots per second still), giving these weapons a fire rate faster than is required results in them being overpowered.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3329
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Posted - 2014.08.20 11:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: the ROF would have to be dropped from the current 705 RPM (11 Shots per Second), to 305 RPM (6 Shots per Second) or does this not sound reasonable? i see no reason why it should be lower than the glu-5 or duvolle tac which both have 500rpm So it can't achieve more than 420 DPS, EVER (with the exception to the charge shot) Though the GLU and Duvolle would be given the same treatment and be capped at 415 DPS which is achieved with 340 RPM (about 6 shots per second still), giving these weapons a fire rate faster than is required results in them being overpowered. the glu, duvolle or scrambler aint ever getting capped at 340rpm, 6 shots a second is doable in my sleep
Which is exactly why it should be capped their, if you wish to propose a higher ROF, then it shouldmhave lower damage. If you do not cap the weapons at the rate of fire I have suggested their DPS outclasses that of the Assault AR, which simply shouldn't happen.
And that is EXACTLY why the ScR is OP.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
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Posted - 2014.08.20 14:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: So it can't achieve more than 420 DPS, EVER (with the exception to the charge shot) Though the GLU and Duvolle would be given the same treatment and be capped at 415 DPS which is achieved with 340 RPM (about 6 shots per second still), giving these weapons a fire rate faster than is required results in them being overpowered.
the glu, duvolle or scrambler aint ever getting capped at 340rpm, 6 shots a second is doable in my sleep Which is exactly why it should be capped their, if you wish to propose a higher ROF, then it shouldmhave lower damage. If you do not cap the weapons at the rate of fire I have suggested their DPS outclasses that of the Assault AR, which simply shouldn't happen. And that is EXACTLY why the ScR is OP. unless ccp completely redo every other light assault type weapon what your proposing aint gonna happen, give it up. peace
3 weapons is hardly every other light weapon, however similar caps would be placed on the Burst Combat Rifles to ensure they don't over achieve either.
So your admitting the ScR is OP then.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
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Posted - 2014.08.20 15:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: So your admitting the ScR is OP then.
ur and everybody else insistence that the scram is op is tiresome, this my last response to you. good day sir
So yes then it is, otherwise you would have denied it, would you not? Either which way I decided to do some maths, because maths tells the true story.
As we have said early 7 shots a second is a reasonable ROF for the scrambler excluding turbos and FOTM followers, even as you said 6 shots a second can be done in your sleep.
Let's Start by looking at the stats on a scrabler rifle (The moderate range, moderate DPS weapon) Now at 7 shots a second the DPS (excluding charge) is 539 According to most people the ScR overheats with 14 shots at profciency 0, this also included my own personal experience. This gives 2 seconds BEFORE overheat and 5 second seize duration. (However firing 13 shots means you cooldown within 2 seconds)
Now let's look at the Assault Rifle (The short range high DPS weapon) At the fully automatic ROF of 800 RPM (13 shots a second) the DPS equates to 453 With this ROF you get a 6 second magazine before reload is required.
So now let's stack the 2 together I will put the Assault on the left and the scrambler on the right. DPS vs Shields: 498 vs 646 DPS vs Armour: 407 vs 431
DPS over 2 seconds 906 vs 1,078
DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,078 DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,617
DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 3,171 vs 2,176 DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 3,171 vs 3,234
As you can see the user of the scrambler rifle can choose to either Alpha damage them to death in less than 2 seconds, or they can outlast them in a marathon of combat that only the scrambler rifle can maintain. Futhermore this is beforemthe charge shot or ramges has been considered, the Scrambler Rifle will continue to uphold this DPS level well past 50m.
Wether you like it or not the scrambler rifle needs tweaking and conaidering it's possible to achieve an extra 4 shots a secomd at the moment it most DEFINITELY needs a more reasonable ROF cap.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
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Posted - 2014.08.20 15:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Monty Mole Clone wrote:Monkey MAC wrote: So your admitting the ScR is OP then.
ur and everybody else insistence that the scram is op is tiresome, this my last response to you. good day sir So yes then it is, otherwise you would have denied it, would you not? Either which way I decided to do some maths, because maths tells the true story. As we have said early 7 shots a second is a reasonable ROF for the scrambler excluding turbos and FOTM followers, even as you said 6 shots a second can be done in your sleep. Let's Start by looking at the stats on a scrabler rifle (The moderate range, moderate DPS weapon) Now at 7 shots a second the DPS (excluding charge) is 539 According to most people the ScR overheats with 14 shots at profciency 0, this also included my own personal experience. This gives 2 seconds BEFORE overheat and 5 second seize duration. (However firing 13 shots means you cooldown within 2 seconds) Now let's look at the Assault Rifle (The short range high DPS weapon) At the fully automatic ROF of 800 RPM (13 shots a second) the DPS equates to 453 With this ROF you get a 6 second magazine before reload is required. So now let's stack the 2 together I will put the Assault on the left and the scrambler on the right. DPS vs Shields: 498 vs 646 DPS vs Armour: 407 vs 431 DPS over 2 seconds 906 vs 1,078 DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,078 DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,617 DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 3,171 vs 2,176 DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 3,171 vs 3,234 As you can see the user of the scrambler rifle can choose to either Alpha damage them to death in less than 2 seconds, or they can outlast them in a marathon of combat that only the scrambler rifle can maintain. Futhermore this is beforemthe charge shot or ramges has been considered, the Scrambler Rifle will continue to uphold this DPS level well past 50m. Wether you like it or not the scrambler rifle needs tweaking and conaidering it's possible to achieve an extra 4 shots a secomd at the moment it most DEFINITELY needs a more reasonable ROF cap. Now add in strafing, cover, grenades, teamwork,passive bonuses etc, etc.
If you wish to add in strafing apply an average 60% accuracy to both weapons (Since you assume both weapons are being weilded by the same person)
Cover will not affect the RAW DPS (but it will the sustained DPS), since if you are in cover you can not engage the enemy either. (If anything this is another boon to the Scrambler since you can cool down while not in cover)
Grenades will not effect the mathematics, since if your pair one weapon with a grenade you must pair the other also (This means you can remove common factors from an equation - basic algebra)
Teamwork will not effect the mathematics, since if you pair one with tea woem you musr pair the other also (As above, in order to this objectively, you cannot say "well what if he's being repped", since must then assums the other can also receive the same treatment)
Once again the only passive bonuses that would actually come into effect are the bonuses from the weapons operation skill, a d from the suit command skill since all other skills are equally available to each clone. (In this case this the only ones that then don't effect the weapons equally is the Assault skills, this would give the following bonuses to the AR, -25% Dispersion -50% Kick and the following to the ScR, -25% Heatbuild up, +25% faster cooldown. I can provide the maths for this as well as you wish but I don't think it will help your point)
If you have a problem with any of my reasoning please feel free to message me, or send a voice chat invite where I can discuss it with you in detail.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3330
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
So yes then it is, otherwise you would have denied it, would you not? Either which way I decided to do some maths, because maths tells the true story.
As we have said early 7 shots a second is a reasonable ROF for the scrambler excluding turbos and FOTM followers, even as you said 6 shots a second can be done in your sleep.
Let's Start by looking at the stats on a scrabler rifle (The moderate range, moderate DPS weapon) Now at 7 shots a second the DPS (excluding charge) is 539 According to most people the ScR overheats with 14 shots at profciency 0, this also included my own personal experience. This gives 2 seconds BEFORE overheat and 5 second seize duration. (However firing 13 shots means you cooldown within 2 seconds)
Now let's look at the Assault Rifle (The short range high DPS weapon) At the fully automatic ROF of 800 RPM (13 shots a second) the DPS equates to 453 With this ROF you get a 6 second magazine before reload is required.
So now let's stack the 2 together I will put the Assault on the left and the scrambler on the right. DPS vs Shields: 498 vs 646 DPS vs Armour: 407 vs 431
DPS over 2 seconds 906 vs 1,078
DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,078 DPS over 5 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 2,265 vs 1,617
DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming Seizure) 3,171 vs 2,176 DPS over 10 seconds (Assuming No Seizure) 3,171 vs 3,234
As you can see the user of the scrambler rifle can choose to either Alpha damage them to death in less than 2 seconds, or they can outlast them in a marathon of combat that only the scrambler rifle can maintain. Futhermore this is beforemthe charge shot or ramges has been considered, the Scrambler Rifle will continue to uphold this DPS level well past 50m.
Wether you like it or not the scrambler rifle needs tweaking and conaidering it's possible to achieve an extra 4 shots a secomd at the moment it most DEFINITELY needs a more reasonable ROF cap.
Now add in strafing, cover, grenades, teamwork,passive bonuses etc, etc. If you wish to add in strafing apply an average 60% accuracy to both weapons (Since you assume both weapons are being weilded by the same person) Cover will not affect the RAW DPS (but it will the sustained DPS), since if you are in cover you can not engage the enemy either. (If anything this is another boon to the Scrambler since you can cool down while not in cover) Grenades will not effect the mathematics, since if your pair one weapon with a grenade you must pair the other also (This means you can remove common factors from an equation - basic algebra) Teamwork will not effect the mathematics, since if you pair one with tea woem you musr pair the other also (As above, in order to this objectively, you cannot say "well what if he's being repped", since must then assums the other can also receive the same treatment) Once again the only passive bonuses that would actually come into effect are the bonuses from the weapons operation skill, a d from the suit command skill since all other skills are equally available to each clone. (In this case this the only ones that then don't effect the weapons equally is the Assault skills, this would give the following bonuses to the AR, -25% Dispersion -50% Kick and the following to the ScR, -25% Heatbuild up, +25% faster cooldown. I can provide the maths for this as well as you wish but I don't think it will help your point) If you have a problem with any of my reasoning please feel free to message me, or send a voice chat invite where I can discuss it with you in detail. Im not saying you are wrong per se, but this paper math goes out the window in game where the numbers become a reality (lol reality) and you get people using mlt gear and they pwn full proto etc because of in game variables and skill. Your math dictates that its op and wins every time basically but how many scr users have you killed when the math dictates you should have lost?. You cant calculate player skill. Im not saying you are wrong in the math but in game, things go differently.
Quite true such is the nature of entropy (chaos), my maths doesn't say that you absolutely should win out against an AR everytime, it simply shows the ScR to be very powerful.
If as you say we can't calculate skill, at most we could draw an average, we simplfy the model. Player skill should not be a balancing factor for a weapon, otherwise you get people who just can't use certain weapons, or other people who will make an easy to use weapon OP.
While I probably COULD factor in every little difference, pitting a mlt vs pro isn't a fair assessment, you have to make assumptions, the first of which is that both players have the 250 million SP required to max out the games skill tree.
You can't calculate what will happen in real life, because real life is biased, and as such the maths would show a biased opinion, you simplfy, equalise and remove anything that is not an inherent part of what ever the maths is about.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3332
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
NAV HIV wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Atiim wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote: You cant calculate player skill..
You can calculate a player's:
- Accuracy
- Situational Awareness
- Strafing Abilities
- Performance with Weapons
- Performance with Weapon Types
- Performance with Equipment
- Critical Decision Making Skills
- etc, etc, etc.
Literally every game with Matchmaking calculates player skill. Well then, i guess we need to get observing every player in dust and then we can officially determine if the scr is op. Im sorry but most who say that its op are not exactly the best players are they?. In fact quite a few are straight up fresh newbs in comparison. Well said... Out of all the Rifles, ScR is the most difficult to use... RR second, AR 3rd and Assault CR is well its a the CR
Actually none of them are particularly more difficult to use than any other. They are hitscan They are all AA enabled They are HROF weapons (by comparison to other weapon types) They all have 'comparable' accuracy
Skill varies too much between individuals to be a factor. For example you say the Burst Combat Rifleis the easiest to use, so why can't I use them? Why am I terrible with them? Yet in the same stretch I can take the RR and I end up haemorrhageing WP.
Is it my lack of skill? How can it be? I am using a more skillful weapon and doing better?
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3332
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Krixus Flux wrote:Look at them scurrying to protect their crutch. I wonder how you dudes will rage when we get it nerfed. It really needs to be looked at. Lol, look at the scrubs who cant see past their own inadequacy. I wonder how they'll feel when every weapon takes 5 mins to kill someone.
You see this is the problem with arguememts, people's opinions cloud their judgement. Do you assume that just because I think the ScR is OP that am I scrub? I think a lot of weapons are OP (BCR, RR, ScR, Projectile Damage profiles) does that somehow make me a superscrub?
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3333
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:NAV HIV wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:[quote=Atiim]
Well then, i guess we need to get observing every player in dust and then we can officially determine if the scr is op.
Im sorry but most who say that its op are not exactly the best players are they?. In fact quite a few are straight up fresh newbs in comparison. Well said... Out of all the Rifles, ScR is the most difficult to use... RR second, AR 3rd and Assault CR is well its a the CR Actually none of them are particularly more difficult to use than any other. They are hitscan They are all AA enabled They are HROF weapons (by comparison to other weapon types) They all have 'comparable' accuracy Skill varies too much between individuals to be a factor. For example you say the Burst Combat Rifleis the easiest to use, so why can't I use them? Why am I terrible with them? Yet in the same stretch I can take the RR and I end up haemorrhageing WP. Is it my lack of skill? How can it be? I am using a more skillful weapon and doing better? I cant use the forge gun to save my life. Presciely yet I can sit their, with forge gun popping fools at 20m or 100m like they were standing still.
But that doesn't make it any easier of a weapon to use Nor do it make it any more skillful to use
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3333
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Posted - 2014.08.20 17:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Krixus Flux wrote:Look at them scurrying to protect their crutch. I wonder how you dudes will rage when we get it nerfed. It really needs to be looked at. Lol, look at the scrubs who cant see past their own inadequacy. I wonder how they'll feel when every weapon takes 5 mins to kill someone. You see this is the problem with arguememts, people's opinions cloud their judgement. Do you assume that just because I think the ScR is OP that am I scrub? I think a lot of weapons are OP (BCR, RR, ScR, Projectile Damage profiles) does that somehow make me a superscrub? No. I just answer in a manner relative to what i believe a posts content is worth. This thread was just supposed to be a counter post to the bias crap in another thread that wanted the scr nerfed wwith no reasonable excuse.
Well now I have provided you with a reasonable excuse. Your time would probably be better served by suggesting 'reasonable nerfs' that will stop being made into a flay lock Jr. Such as my proposed ROF nerf to 305, which under the maths I have shown you little make little difference in its feel and operation, but it will no longer out DPS the assault rifle.
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3334
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Posted - 2014.08.20 18:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:[quote=Monkey MAC] No.
I just answer in a manner relative to what i believe a posts content is worth.
This thread was just supposed to be a counter post to the bias crap in another thread that wanted the scr nerfed wwith no reasonable excuse. Well now I have provided you with a reasonable excuse. Your time would probably be better served by suggesting 'reasonable nerfs' that will stop being made into a flay lock Jr. Such as my proposed ROF nerf to 305, which under the maths I have shown you little make little difference in its feel and operation, but it will no longer out DPS the assault rifle. I was thinking that a hip fire dispersion increase would be good also. Id not like it but i wouldnt mind it. I would not like the rof being at 305 (naturally lol) but i would be up for seeing how that pans out. Damn that was painful lol.
I would prefer that comes later, if necessary, moving too much at a time is unpredictable and potentially weapon breaking. In my personal opinion the ScR only needs a few minor tweaks, so that it behaves in a more uniform manner, is less prone to abuse and so forth.
We don't need to go overboard, personally I think their are some weapons which need a lot more attention that the ScR. But as a wise man once said,
All rivers lead to ocean, do not fight upstream just for shorter river!
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
3336
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Posted - 2014.08.20 18:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:You should definitely make a decent thread Monkey Mac.
your reasonable number crunching is definitely needed.
you have reasoned with me on a matter that i strongly opposed.
I will try later, but I'm playing right now! But thanks, it's nice to see being objective and unbiased while using evidence and numbers actually works, it usally has jixed results!
They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
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