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BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:51:00 - [1] - Quote I'm sure that many people have made arguments for and against Shotguns, but here's mine. Standard Shotgun 36 * 12 = 432 damage per shot 85.7 * 432 = 37022.4 damage per minute 37022.4 / 60 = 617 Damage per second. For an Alpha damage weapon (a weapon that does large amounts of single shot damage) this is entirely way too much DPS. To make this understandable in Eve terms. It would be like a Battleship with tech 1 Artillery doing 200 points less DPS than tech 2 Auto Cannons. If you want the shotgun to have a high DPS, then the damage per shot needs to be reduced. Or if you want the high damage (the breach variant was suppose to be the higher alpha damage variant) then you need to drop the rate of fire. Either: Drop the damage by about 5.5 points per pellet which would mean 366 damage per shot with a DPS of about 522. Or Drop the rate of fire by about 13 points which should bring the DPS down to the same. I would prefer the first option, and of course I would suggest looking at the numbers yourself CCP. If the breach variant was suppose to be the high alpha damage shotgun, then why is it hardly being used? Why are almost every scout using shotguns instead of other silent weapons like nova knives? Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2867	Posted - 2014.08.18 18:53:00 - [2] - Quote How many shots do you feel is appropriate to kill a tanked Assault suit at 5-10m?
Coleman Gray Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 1090	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:13:00 - [3] - Quote Shotguns are OP....assuming the target is no further away than arms reach. If Preparation is half of the battle and knowing is the other half, Then there is no need to fight.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2209	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:21:00 - [4] - Quote If the shotgun is close enough to lick your ear, you're dead. If the shotgun stays outside 10 meters, he dies. this is rather binary. It's almost a nova knife made of pain and with slightly more range.
Sly Marb0 Screaming Falcons 12	Posted - 2014.08.18 19:54:00 - [5] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: I'm sure that many people have made arguments for and against Shotguns, but here's mine. Standard Shotgun 36 * 12 = 432 damage per shot 85.7 * 432 = 37022.4 damage per minute 37022.4 / 60 = 617 Damage per second. For an Alpha damage weapon (a weapon that does large amounts of single shot damage) this is entirely way too much DPS. To make this understandable in Eve terms. It would be like a Battleship with tech 1 Artillery doing 200 points less DPS than tech 2 Auto Cannons. If you want the shotgun to have a high DPS, then the damage per shot needs to be reduced. Or if you want the high damage (the breach variant was suppose to be the higher alpha damage variant) then you need to drop the rate of fire. Either: Drop the damage by about 5.5 points per pellet which would mean 366 damage per shot with a DPS of about 522. Or Drop the rate of fire by about 13 points which should bring the DPS down to the same. I would prefer the first option, and of course I would suggest looking at the numbers yourself CCP. If the breach variant was suppose to be the high alpha damage shotgun, then why is it hardly being used? Why are almost every scout using shotguns instead of other silent weapons like nova knives? I'm going to guess you haven't used the Breach SG. It adds barely any range as you still need to be on top of your target, there is no rate of fire to speak of so that first hit had better kill (you won't because we do -10% to armor), and even it's reload is atrocious. You get maybe one kill and you're dead, assuming you got the kill. Shotguns need fixing but not nerfing, it's a VERY high risk weapon.
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:06:00 - [6] - Quote Sly Marb0 wrote: I'm going to guess you haven't used the Breach SG. It adds barely any range as you still need to be on top of your target, there is no rate of fire to speak of so that first hit had better kill (you won't because we do -10% to armor), and even it's reload is atrocious. You get maybe one kill and you're dead, assuming you got the kill. Shotguns need fixing but not nerfing, it's a VERY high risk weapon. High risk? Maybe, if people care about their K/D spreads but I don't really understand why when it's all about the war points. WP gives you higher amounts of isk and SP and death takes away nothing while kills automatically give you 50. Too many times I've tried to use guerrilla tactics against other players, and on a few occasions it has been successful, but against most HP stacked players and pure proto users it tends to fail and I'm forced instead to switch to basic shotguns to end their reign of terror. Now, I'll agree that at range shotguns will lose to most other weapons. That is unless of course you see a gallente Scout suit with 800 armor that can just barrel through all your rounds and kill the distance. Most of the time however, if you see a scout (whether by radar or sight) you'll be too late to actually gun him down because of the general 2 shot kill of the shotgun. As far as the Breach Shotgun variant goes? I love it. Except for the 2 clip size AND the ****** reload speed. I could either say that it needs a larger clip OR a faster reload (not both), but the fire rate and the damage is pretty much where it should be. Yeah you can't take out most Heavies with your 2 rounds, but in all honesty a lone shotgun shouldn't be able to insta kill heavies without some serious explosives, assistance, or a vehicle. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:07:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If the shotgun is close enough to lick your ear, you're dead. If the shotgun stays outside 10 meters, he dies. this is rather binary. It's almost a nova knife made of pain and with slightly more range. And no need for a charge up or extra damage mods. Most of the time I run a basic scout with a shotgun and the rest of my slots are empty. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:08:00 - [8] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: How many shots do you feel is appropriate to kill a tanked Assault suit at 5-10m? More than 1. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 181	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:09:00 - [9] - Quote pitiful "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:16:00 - [10] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: pitiful You're right. You're inability to use more than one word in a sentence really shows how bad our education system really has become. Or the lack of knowledge of how to use capital letters or punctuation. It truly is pitiful. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2213	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:18:00 - [11] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If the shotgun is close enough to lick your ear, you're dead. If the shotgun stays outside 10 meters, he dies. this is rather binary. It's almost a nova knife made of pain and with slightly more range. And no need for a charge up or extra damage mods. Most of the time I run a basic scout with a shotgun and the rest of my slots are empty. I don't need damage mods on any of my HMGs either. They're merely convenient.
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 69	Posted - 2014.08.18 20:46:00 - [12] - Quote Sly Marb0 wrote: I'm going to guess you haven't used the Breach SG. It adds barely any range as you still need to be on top of your target, there is no rate of fire to speak of so that first hit had better kill (you won't because we do -10% to armor), and even it's reload is atrocious. You get maybe one kill and you're dead, assuming you got the kill. Shotguns need fixing but not nerfing, it's a VERY high risk weapon. Just to prove a point I'd thought I run two matches and see what I could do. All I used for the first match was a caldari basic scout and a breach shotgun and for the second match a caldari basic scout with a standard shotgun. Except for a redo (enemy team consisted of proto stompers from the previous Blue Donut), my breach test run had me with 4 kills, 7 assists and 2 deaths though one I allowed because I ran out of ammo and there weren't any nanohives or supply depots on the ambush match. To that score I have to say that yes, the breach variant is a little off and can't get a large number of kills really fast and I tended to get assists because an ally would finish off the near dead guy. However! If the clip size was doubled or the reloading speed was the same as a standard shotgun (not sure why the breach is slower) then I don't think I would have had as many problems. Even at ranges from 10-20 meters I was able to get kills (though it was easier if you aimed for the head it would put the efficiency up to near 100%). Now, the second match. Once again an empty caldari basic scout suit with a standard shotgun. 18 kills, 4 assists, 1 death.... What can I say about it? The basic level shotgun, heck, the militia shotgun is TOO EASY! Very little risk involved since most players are running from the sound of a shotgun, or just unable to target me long enough to put me down in CQC. I should probably post pics or something but I never cared enough to learn how to do that. So just take my word for it. Also, it seems I got my numbers wrong earlier and I'll be posting an edit in the first post. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 79	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:14:00 - [13] - Quote Breach shotgun is only useful as secondary weapon on commandos, and there it works pretty well against scouts because you have more range and so instakill them before they reach you. It works probably more thanks to the surprise effect than the gun itself, but it's fun (moreover breach shotguns send scouts far away if you shoot them when they jump )
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 210	Posted - 2014.08.18 21:28:00 - [14] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: I'm sure that many people have made arguments for and against Shotguns, but here's mine. Standard Shotgun 36 * 12 = 432 damage per shot 85.7 * 432 = 37022.4 damage per minute 37022.4 / 60 = 617 Damage per second ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// EDIT: CORRECTION: 40 * 12 = 480 damage per shot 85.7 * 480 = 41136 damage per minute 41136 / 60 = 685.6 Damage per second \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ For an Alpha damage weapon (a weapon that does large amounts of single shot damage) this is entirely way too much DPS. To make this understandable in Eve terms. It would be like a Battleship with tech 1 Artillery doing 200 points less DPS than tech 2 Auto Cannons. If you want the shotgun to have a high DPS, then the damage per shot needs to be reduced. Or if you want the high damage (the breach variant was suppose to be the higher alpha damage variant) then you need to drop the rate of fire. Either: Drop the damage by about 5.5 points per pellet which would mean 366 damage per shot with a DPS of about 522. Or Drop the rate of fire by about 13 points which should bring the DPS down to the same. I would prefer the first option, and of course I would suggest looking at the numbers yourself CCP. If the breach variant was suppose to be the high alpha damage shotgun, then why is it hardly being used? Why are almost every scout using shotguns instead of other silent weapons like nova knives? Because the breach only has 2 shots. Nova knives were only used on min scouts, after the buff you see more and more of them.
iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 181	Posted - 2014.08.19 12:00:00 - [15] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: iKILLu osborne wrote: pitiful You're right. You're inability to use more than one word in a sentence really shows how bad our education system really has become. Or the lack of knowledge of how to use capital letters or punctuation. It truly is pitiful. no sir my controller f'd up (look in the lockeroom :to my comrades) and using just a mouse is challenging (no keyboard) the shotgun is generally ran with fits under 300 hp, and your bitching over a weapon that has a range of 5~10m ,so yes "pitiful" sums up your entire op "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 3981	Posted - 2014.08.19 16:56:00 - [16] - Quote and when you are more then 5m away from your target not all pellets hit and you are starting to loose tons of damage due to the dropoff. Shotguns are only slightly better then nova knifes. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2099	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:35:00 - [17] - Quote How is 100 more DPS than a full auto fine rifle "too much DPS"? Its not an alpha weapon either, the HP size has grown too much for it to be considered that "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2099	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:37:00 - [18] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Sly Marb0 wrote: I'm going to guess you haven't used the Breach SG. It adds barely any range as you still need to be on top of your target, there is no rate of fire to speak of so that first hit had better kill (you won't because we do -10% to armor), and even it's reload is atrocious. You get maybe one kill and you're dead, assuming you got the kill. Shotguns need fixing but not nerfing, it's a VERY high risk weapon. Just to prove a point I'd thought I run two matches and see what I could do. All I used for the first match was a caldari basic scout and a breach shotgun and for the second match a caldari basic scout with a standard shotgun. Except for a redo (enemy team consisted of proto stompers from the previous Blue Donut), my breach test run had me with 4 kills, 7 assists and 2 deaths though one I allowed because I ran out of ammo and there weren't any nanohives or supply depots on the ambush match. To that score I have to say that yes, the breach variant is a little off and can't get a large number of kills really fast and I tended to get assists because an ally would finish off the near dead guy. However! If the clip size was doubled or the reloading speed was the same as a standard shotgun (not sure why the breach is slower) then I don't think I would have had as many problems. Even at ranges from 10-20 meters I was able to get kills (though it was easier if you aimed for the head it would put the efficiency up to near 100%). Now, the second match. Once again an empty caldari basic scout suit with a standard shotgun. 18 kills, 4 assists, 1 death.... What can I say about it? The basic level shotgun, heck, the militia shotgun is TOO EASY! Very little risk involved since most players are running from the sound of a shotgun, or just unable to target me long enough to put me down in CQC. I should probably post pics or something but I never cared enough to learn how to do that. So just take my word for it. Also, it seems I got my numbers wrong earlier and I'll be posting an edit in the first post. Congrats, you went 18/1 with a basic suit...come back when you go 27/0 in a frontline. I say that the minmitar frontline suit is OP!!! "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4269	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:42:00 - [19] - Quote LOL ... I reject your theoretical "big" numbers and substitute my own: It currently takes just 5 seconds to bludgeon a GA or AM Sentinel to death. How many seconds would you propose it take? Keep in mind ... It takes under 0.5 seconds for Sentinel to insta-spin. It takes under 0.5 seconds for an HMG to kill a 300-400HP Scout. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4269	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:44:00 - [20] - Quote More food for thought ... You're assuming that all pellets hit a target. You're assuming that all pellets register. Neither of these assumptions are generally observed. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 74	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:01:00 - [21] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: the shotgun is generally ran with fits under 300 hp, and your bitching over a weapon that has a range of 5~10m ,so yes "pitiful" sums up your entire op "generally ran with fits under 300 hp" At level 5 for armor and shield skills my basic scout suits get 249 EHP. Your assumption is that every player runs without HP mods, or are new players. Nearly every "Shotgun Scout" that I've run across (maybe 70% or more) has run with an EHP of at least 600. And "generally" the the shotgun scouts are Gallente Scouts with Armor of around 500 and shields around 150. Now this brings up a whole other can of worms about scouts and specialized suits having way too many slots, but the point remains the same. The "generally ran fits" that you mention are, at least for me, rarely seen. And my "bitching" as you put it is due to the extreme rates of fire and high damage that allow these supposedly high risk and suicidal scouts to kill not only heavies but entire squads faster than returning fire can put them down. When I see on the kill boards scouts with scores of 40/0 then it's time something be done. It could be that some of these players are cheating, and I say this because I know other players probably don't understand how a single scout can take down an entire squad of "good players." But Squad annihilation happens too often on my screen (both on the receiving end and on the dishing out side). Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 74	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:04:00 - [22] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: and when you are more then 5m away from your target not all pellets hit and you are starting to loose tons of damage due to the dropoff. Shotguns are only slightly better then nova knifes. The shotgun operation skill at level 5 means that at 10 meters you practically have every pellet hit. The damage is reduced significantly (to about 30%) but a headshot will return nearly full damage (around 85-95%). And due to the wide reticle of the hip-fire, it's much easier to get those headshots even at some larger ranges. And 5~10 meters isn't a large distance. Some amazing firefights happen in that range. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 74	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:25:00 - [23] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: How is 100 more DPS than a full auto fine rifle "too much DPS"? Simple logic here. Are you telling me that a single semi-auto shotgun SHOULD do more damage per second than a full auto blaster? I know that shotguns are technically blasters, but it still remains that with 2 shots a standard shotgun will do nearly 950 damage where as an assault rifle will only do about 62 points of damage. Now before you quote this and say something like "it's a shotgun, its suppose to do more damage per shot" I agree! However, the rate of fire is something I have great issues with. The amount of DPS a weapon can do should not be the only factor. Just like the Artillery, or beam lasers, or rail guns of Eve, DPS is not everything. You also have to look at the salvo, or per shot damage. The shotgun, which starting out does 480 damage per shot SHOULD fall into the salvo category of weapons and not the DPS. I know that taken out of context the above doesn't matter much. "At range rifles will win over shotguns." However, an accurate and skillful player can negate a lot of that distance. There have been times where I've died from 3 shots from a shotgun from a range of about 25 meters. Technically that shouldn't have happened, but it happens a lot. Also, there are too many places in Dust where 3-10 meters is where most of the fighting happens. The point I'm trying to make here is that while shotguns should have powerful blasts they should not be able to rapid fire so fast that most players will die before they can even turn around. OR, if you want to have the breach variant be the damage powerhouse of shotguns, and the standard shotgun fire faster with a large clip size and overall more ammunition then the standard shotgun should do less damage. Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Its not an alpha weapon either, the HP size has grown too much for it to be considered that I agree that currently it does not appear to be an alpha damage weapon, this is the problem! It should be an alpha weapon. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 74	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:33:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: LOL ... I reject your theoretical "big" numbers and substitute my own: It currently takes 5 seconds to ~~bludgeon~~ shotgun a GA or AM Sentinel to death. How many seconds would you propose it take? Keep in mind ... It takes less than 0.5 seconds for Sentinel to insta-spin. It takes less than 0.5 seconds for an HMG to kill a 300-400HP Scout. A major problem with your argument is that you look specifically at TWO suits. Not everyone runs the over-armored GA or AM heavies that I personally consider to have too much EHP when considered next to every other suit and the Time to Kill. What takes supposedly 5 shots (hitting the head each time means that in most situations I only need 3 shots) for one suit, only takes 1 or 2 shots for every other suit in the game. Outside of course those players who do nothing but stack HP mods all day every day. Also, the heavies are suppose to be essentially a mini walking turret. If in real life a tank shows up with a couple of soldiers walking next to it, you wouldn't think the best plan of action would be to run at it with a stick of C4 and shove it up the tail pipe. Instead you would use tactics and teamwork to provide concentrated/specialized firepower on it. Same with the Heavies. The idea (or at least as far as I think it its) of CCP is that the heavies are large units that individually should win against any other non-heavy suit at the right ranges. Those ranges are of course under 30 meters. A shotgun, falls into that range so technically it shouldn't win. Do large amounts of damage, yes. But win? No. The shotgun is the wrong weapon for that job. Forge guns, Rail Rifles, Assault Rifles, Sniper rifles, Plasma Cannons, Combat Rifles, Scrambler Rifles, Laser Rifles, turrets of any kind. These are the proper weapons to use against heavies. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 74	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:36:00 - [25] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: More food for thought ... You're assuming that all pellets hit the target. This assumption is generally not observed. And don't get me started on blue flare, or the fact that I can kill Heavies faster with a Combat Rifle. At level 5 shotgun operation there is RARELY a time that I actually do a glancing blow enough that some pellets miss. If the shotgun didn't have the reduction to spread (I actually think that every weapon should have the operation skill bonus and proficiency skill bonus yanked/eliminated/taken out/removed) then I would agree with you. I'm not really sure what you mean with the term "blue flare." Yes, as I just posted (probably right above this), a CR should actually be used when taking on Heavies, and a Shotgun should not!. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 75	Posted - 2014.08.20 00:52:00 - [26] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Congrats, you went 18/1 with a basic suit...come back when you go 27/0 in a frontline. I say that the minmitar frontline suit is OP!!! You say that like I haven't done that numerous times before... First off: A frontline suit starts out with about 4 mods already equipped depending upon the race. My suit has zero mods. Secondly: A frontline suit also has a light weapon, a sidearm, and a grenade. My suit had nothing but a shotgun. Third: The only thing that you are bragging about going 27/0 is that you came across some new players or were backed by a lot of other players and stole the kills. When you get 27/0 against a squad of proto users like Nyain San then I'll be impressed. The matches that I joined had decent amounts of regular players with a couple (1~4) proto users in the game and most of them were bunched together and difficult to deal with without getting killed. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4339	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:28:00 - [27] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: EDIT: Also, according to your numbers and the DPS of the weapon... 5 seconds to kill a heavy 685.6 DPS = 3428 Theoretical damage Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do not have 3458 combined HP. Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do require 4-5 shotgun blasts to kill. Your numbers are off. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4339	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:32:00 - [28] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: 1. At level 5 shotgun operation there is RARELY a time that I actually do a glancing blow enough that some pellets miss. If the shotgun didn't have the reduction to spread (I actually think that every weapon should have the operation skill bonus and proficiency skill bonus yanked/eliminated/taken out/removed) then I would agree with you. 2. I'm not really sure what you mean with the term "blue flare." 3. Yes, as I just posted (probably right above this), a CR should actually be used when taking on Heavies, and a Shotgun should not!. 1. If you are beyond point-blank range, your shotgun will seldom hit for full damage. 2. Describes the regular occurrence of hiting a target for zero damage. 3. The CR and ACR kill at 10x to 20x the optimal range of the SG; they shouldn't outperform the SG in CQC. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
ladwar HEARTS OF PHOENIX 2059	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:44:00 - [29] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: EDIT: Also, according to your numbers and the DPS of the weapon... 5 seconds to kill a heavy 685.6 DPS = 3428 Theoretical damage Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do not have 3458 combined HP. Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do require 4-5 shotgun blasts to kill. Your numbers are off. Yea it doesnt sound right Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet. I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth doing reviews in free time, want 1?
Lylith Groff Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 19	Posted - 2014.08.25 02:01:00 - [30] - Quote BrotherofHavok wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: More food for thought ... You're assuming that all pellets hit the target. This assumption is generally not observed. And don't get me started on blue flare, or the fact that I can kill Heavies faster with a Combat Rifle. At level 5 shotgun operation there is RARELY a time that I actually do a glancing blow enough that some pellets miss. If the shotgun didn't have the reduction to spread (I actually think that every weapon should have the operation skill bonus and proficiency skill bonus yanked/eliminated/taken out/removed) then I would agree with you. I'm not really sure what you mean with the term "blue flare." Yes, as I just posted (probably right above this), a CR should actually be used when taking on Heavies, and a Shotgun should not!. Blue Flare is another term used for Shield Flare or Shield Flicker. The shotgun has an irritating habit of hitting the enemy causing the shield to flicker but causing zero damage. It's the equivalent to firing a dud but still drawing your enemies attention to you. Every reality is naught but a dream... and every dreamer, a god unknowing. c[_].

BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 80	Posted - 2014.08.25 15:47:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: EDIT: Also, according to your numbers and the DPS of the weapon... 5 seconds to kill a heavy 685.6 DPS = 3428 Theoretical damage Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do require 4-5 shotgun blasts to kill. Your numbers are off. The numbers are not off. You said it takes 5 seconds to kill a heavy with a shotgun, I simply multiplied 5 seconds by the damage per second of 685.6 and you get 3428 damage. Even if you factor in resistances against armor (outside of min sentinel there is just the standard -10%) you would still get about 3000 points of damage. If you had said it takes about 5 shots to kill a Gallente Sentinel then I would have no problems with that and maybe it does take 5 seconds to fire 5 shots but then it goes back to the DPS of almost 700. Adipem Nothi wrote: Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do not have 3458 combined HP. Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do require 4-5 shotgun blasts to kill. I understand that there isn't a single suit in the game that has that much HP and that's sort of my point. The most basic shotgun is able to produce enough damage that if CCP allowed could take down tanks in less time than it takes for your depleted shields to start recharging. Once again, I'm not arguing about how much damage the shotgun is doing, I'm arguing that that much damage that FAST is broken. And if your complaint is that the shotguns need a buff because there's still ONE suit that can survive more than 2 blasts then you're stupid. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 80	Posted - 2014.08.25 16:00:00 - [32] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: 1. At level 5 shotgun operation there is RARELY a time that I actually do a glancing blow enough that some pellets miss. If the shotgun didn't have the reduction to spread (I actually think that every weapon should have the operation skill bonus and proficiency skill bonus yanked/eliminated/taken out/removed) then I would agree with you. 2. I'm not really sure what you mean with the term "blue flare." 3. Yes, as I just posted (probably right above this), a CR should actually be used when taking on Heavies, and a Shotgun should not!. 1. If you are beyond point-blank range, your shotgun will seldom hit for full damage. 2. Describes the regular occurrence of SG hitting a target for zero damage. 3. The SG's optimal range is 5m; its DPS within this range must greatly exceed that of Fine Rifles. I agree, but just because it doesn't do full damage does not mean it isn't doing a lot of damage! At 10-15 meters away if you aim for the head you can nearly get 95% efficiency. Even if you miss the head and get the normal 30% of damage from that distance you're still talking about more than 130 points of damage a hit. Scouts can easily get annihilated if they're not stacking HP modules. And most other suits will still have issues with it unless they're stacking HP modules or backed by logis. As far as "Blue Flare" is concerned now that I know the term. This is an issue that CCP and Sony has yet to rectify concerning their connection between clients (PS3's) and it is not limited to the Shotgun! Many times I've died because enemies have STOPPED taking damage from my weapons (CR's, Rails, AR's, MD's, etcetera). I've seen this happen no more often then on my other weapons and to the players that haven't witnessed this... lucky you. To the rest who are like myself and witness this more than we'd like, don't blame the weapon, blame the system. Even if we assume that every player operates within the 5 meters of the optimal range (which I don't normally, but will for the sake of the argument) why then does the shotgun need a DPS greater than rifles? The point of a shotgun isn't to cause damage continually but to cause massive sudden bursts of damage. What if the shotgun had a DPS of 10, but each shot caused 1000 points of damage? Would DPS still be important then? Many players make the mistake of assuming that DPS is ALWAYS king. It's not, just like there isn't one set game style to play. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 80	Posted - 2014.08.25 16:30:00 - [33] - Quote ladwar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: BrotherofHavok wrote: EDIT: Also, according to your numbers and the DPS of the weapon... 5 seconds to kill a heavy 685.6 DPS = 3428 Theoretical damage Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do not have 3458 combined HP. Uparmored GA and AM Sentinels do require 4-5 shotgun blasts to kill. Your numbers are off. Yea it doesnt sound right. He didnt factor resistance. And at 5 seconds thats 7.1 shots assuming your a robot w/ perfect trigger control. Most will get 5 maybe 6 shots in since it is a semi. So only a robot would do 3360 before damage penalty which leaves with about 3050 damage. A great player just abouts about 2180 after armor penalty with 5 out of 7 shots. While poorer players(above average ) would only get 1700 with 4 out of 7 shots. Assuming every pellet hit of course and 3 out of 7 would be 1300 ish(decent player) leaving most armor heavies alive after 5 seconds. And with spread thats the difference people see from "5" shots kill heavies. Its really 4 but they missed 24+ pellets in those 6 shots. Thats 4 each time btw First off, don't just read his quote of my argument alone since he deemed it necessary to ignore the rest of the post I made which is very similar to your own. Once again. Why are you basing your argument about the damage and destructive capabilities of the shotgun against the one dropsuit in the game that is designed to take a massive beating? The Heavies are literally meant to take a lot of damage, but are weak against fast moving RANGED units or vehicles. The shotgun can destroy every other suit in the game AND even heavies especially if players use prototypes, damage mods, skills, or experience. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User


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