DUST Search - Evaluation of the New Burst HMG

John Demonsbane wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

I also find that if you are good at strafing and can avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the engagement it becomes quite easy to kill a Burst HMG Sentinel. If they donGÇÖt get you in their first few bursts they are likely to overhead, or run out of ammo in their clip. I even had a Shotgun Scout charge in at me head on, strafing and crossing my line of fire during the pauses between bursts and then shoot me in the fact from about 2m.

The first "few" bursts? Maybe a speed tanked Cal scout with a broken hitbox and lag assist can strafe a "few" bursts, but that's impossible otherwise unless the HMG user sucks. The risk in attempting that maneuver is far too high for it to be anything other than desperation.

I also seem to find myself curiously unable to avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the encounter because I am generally dead at time 0. If not, in my Amarr logi (which BTW is not a whole lot faster than a Min sentinel) there usually is little other choice but to try and do as much damage as I can before I am dead so someone else can finish him off.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

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Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2164	Posted - 2014.08.19 22:29:00 - [31] - Quote I played a few matches with it on my lower SP heavy alt. It feels OP. It does too many things too well. It should either keep it's crazy DPS and get a significant range nerf (like 20m range--sort of like a shotgun on steroids), or get a DPS nerf (either a damage nerf or an increase to the burst interval). It's not my primary role, so I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out how to balance it. I just wanted to share my experiences with it. Best PvE idea ever!
Spankdamonke Dapper Gentlemen Corporation 5	Posted - 2014.08.19 23:09:00 - [32] - Quote At times I feel it can be a tad OP. But as others have said (and of course I've noticed from personal experience) The heat and ammo consumption do require good management. Otherwise, you'll have a player that goes in and maybe gets a couple of kills, sure. But quickly succumbs to enemy fire when he needs to reload or overheats. I still think we need a bit more time to let the numbers reflect just how many players are completely switching over to burst vs standard HMGs. With that said, should action decidedly be taken, I could compromise on a slight optimal decrease (7 meters or so). Or a damage nerf with a slightly larger gap in damage output between the MLR and Six Kin, as right now there is too little benefit for the drastically increased cost. There was an 11% damage gap in the old bursts, that would probably work towards reducing their use somewhat. Leaving them in the proper hands.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 77	Posted - 2014.08.20 03:31:00 - [33] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This morning I killed a Scout and then noticed a Remote Explosive on the wall behind him as his body dropped. I had time to comment about the Remote on coms before that last burst of my HMG went offGÇª the burst that goes off after you have taken your finger off the triggerGÇª the burst that went off just as I was looking at the Remote explosive on the wall 2m awayGÇª I still melee uplinks And you never see the remote till you have already clicked the stick lolz "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:33:00 - [34] - Quote This morning I went head to head twice with a guy in a GÇ£CovenantGÇ¥ Caldari Standard Assault suit with a GÇ£ToxinGÇ¥ SMG. Both times we were about 10m apart (optimal for both weapons) in an open field with no cover. He won both head to head encounters. He won the fights because he strafed properly and he strafed well. By GÇ£properlyGÇ¥ I mean that his movements were large enough to break the Aim Assist lock. By GÇ£wellGÇ¥ I mean that he switched directions often and he did not pause. (If you are not using a Mouse and Keyboard you can avoid the slowdown/speed up effect when changing directions by rolling the left thumb stick around its outer perimeter so that it does not cross the dead zone in the center.) In this encounter I was trying to precisely place each burst on him, but just as the burst was about to go off he would change direction and the burst would either miss or only inflict the low damage of a glancing blow where only the dispersed rounds would hit. Assault suits have enough health to take a few glancing blows, and have enough movement speed to strafe effectively. I also encountered a few other medium frame suits in that match which strafed effectively and beat me, but on a few occasions I managed to get a burst mid chest and end them quickly. My conclusions so far: The Burst HMG is effective for skilled players who place their bursts with precision and donGÇÖt waste ammo. The Burst HMG can be beaten by a skilled medium frame player who knows how to strafe properly and can shoot and strafe at the same time. The Burst HMG can be beaten by a skilled Scout who is proficient at avoiding getting hit while they move in close for a Shotgun or Nova Knife attack. Shotgun, Nova Knife, and Burst HMG will each instakill when they apply damage directly to the back of someoneGÇÖs head, but Scouts are better at sneaking up behind people than Sentinels are. As skilled players learn more about how the Burst HMG works, they will become more effective at countering it. Anyone who charges a Burst HMG without strafing or using cover is going to get mowed down like grass. The thing that has surprized me most while using the Burst HMG is how often I overheat, have to reload, or both in the middle of a fire fight and still manage to survive long enough to get my HMG back into action and kill the guy. It takes me 6 seconds to reload and an overheat must last at least 5 seconds. Of course I strafe as much as I can at an Amarr SentinelGÇÖs walking speed, and I get behind cover as quickly as possible, but when my gun is jammed or I go into a reload cycle I am always amazed when my opponents donGÇÖt go in for the kill. Recently I have been running the Advanced Burst on a Standard Sentinel suit with no sidearm due to fitting requirements, which should be a stupid and suicidal fit, but I am getting away with it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:44:00 - [35] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I also find that if you are good at strafing and can avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the engagement it becomes quite easy to kill a Burst HMG Sentinel. If they donGÇÖt get you in their first few bursts they are likely to overhead, or run out of ammo in their clip. I even had a Shotgun Scout charge in at me head on, strafing and crossing my line of fire during the pauses between bursts and then shoot me in the fact from about 2m. The first "few" bursts? Maybe a speed tanked Cal scout with a broken hitbox and lag assist can strafe a "few" bursts, but that's impossible otherwise unless the HMG user sucks. The risk in attempting that maneuver is far too high for it to be anything other than desperation. I also seem to find myself curiously unable to avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the encounter because I am generally dead at time 0. If not, in my Amarr logi (which BTW is not a whole lot faster than a Min sentinel) there usually is little other choice but to try and do as much damage as I can before I am dead so someone else can finish him off. Using the slowest medium frame suit does put you at a disadvantage when facing the Burst HMG. Against the Burst HMG speed tanking is more effective than Brick tanking. And if the Burst HMG gets a shot on your before you realize he is there, then yes, the fight is pretty much over by that point. Once the Burst HMG Sentinel shoots something, everyone within 50m who has stereo headphones will know exactly which direction the Burst HMG sentinel is in. You canGÇÖt miss that distinctive sound. I would always recommend attacking a Burst HMG Sentinel from behind if you can. Attacking one head on using strafing should be reserved for when you find yourself in front of one unexpectedly without available cover, or for those who are just really good and know it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:50:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Have you guys decided yet whether or not the Burst HMG is too good? Fix suggestions? Not quite yet? Hard to say. -It mows down Noobs like grass. -Noobs find it too difficult to use. -Skilled Sentinels can use it to devastating effect. -Skilled Assault and Scout players can counter it. -A lucky shot can take out even the most skilled strafing Scout/Assault, so no fight against a Burst HMG is a sure thing. I donGÇÖt think the Burst HMG will be considered OP in PC matches once the experienced players figure out how to counter it, but it sometimes seems very OP in Pub matches. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 76	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:59:00 - [37] - Quote Please let me know if anyone feels differently, but I get the strong impression that the "new" burst HMG was meant to be the counter to other heavies with HMGs. In a 1v1 fight between heavies, my Caldari heavy normally dies since it can't stack on a bunch of armor HP mods (we all know that armor mods give about twice those of shields and are easier to fit), but with a burst HMG I've been the survivor more and more in those 1v1 fights. Even a few proto Gallente heavies have gone down to my burst HMG. I agree completely with you Fox, that the "ammo pissing" aspect of the burst means that it will not immediately become FOTM, however, I'm sure it will at some point when enough players see the proto squads running around with it. It's simply too destructive not to become a FOTM especially if we start to see more logis on the field. With enough support the burst HMG could completely replace the standard HMG and the assault variant? I'm not sure when I even saw that the last time... Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:03:00 - [38] - Quote I would like to give a shout out to Shotty GoBang who I know is following this thread. I went up against Shotty and J0lly R0g3r in a Pub Skirmish last night. It was not long before my two squad mates and I were saying screw the objectives and started to focus all our efforts on hunting those squirrely scouts. I managed to get each of them a couple times but between the two of them they were responsible for 10 out of my 13 deaths. Some of the kills they pulled off on me had me laughing my ass off! Like me firing into a group of three Scouts and I see Scotty bail over a retaining wall, and then somehow while I am still exchanging fire with the other Scouts he has come up the stairs behind me and shoots me in the back of the head. WTF! And the scurrilous J0lly R0g3r is scary good with those knives! Pro Tip: If you have Shotty GoBang dead to rights in your sitesGÇª GÇªthen you are probably standing on a Remote Explosive. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:13:00 - [39] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I played a few matches with it on my lower SP heavy alt. It feels OP. It does too many things too well. It should either keep it's crazy DPS and get a significant range nerf (like 20m range--sort of like a shotgun on steroids), or get a DPS nerf (either a damage nerf or an increase to the burst interval). It's not my primary role, so I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out how to balance it. I just wanted to share my experiences with it. You make a good point. If it does need to be nerfed, a range nerf would be a reasonable approach. Maybe reduce the range to what the Standard HMG had before Charli. I do not think that the burst interval, heat buildup, or rate of fire should be changed. Those seem to be in a sweat spot right now. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:17:00 - [40] - Quote Devadander wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning I killed a Scout and then noticed a Remote Explosive on the wall behind him as his body dropped. I had time to comment about the Remote on coms before that last burst of my HMG went offGÇª the burst that goes off after you have taken your finger off the triggerGÇª the burst that went off just as I was looking at the Remote explosive on the wall 2m awayGÇª I still melee uplinks And you never see the remote till you have already clicked the stick lolz When no one else is dropping uplinks I switch into a Dren Logi suit and lay some done. I NEVER lay an uplink without putting a remote explosive on top of it. I am amazed at how many kills I get that way, and it makes the uplink last longer. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

BrotherofHavok PIanet Express Top Men. 78	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:35:00 - [41] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Pro Tip: If you have Shotty GoBang dead to rights in your sitesGÇª GÇªthen you are probably standing on a Remote Explosive. This should be one of those famous quotes that CCP should put up on their dust website. And for eve too! It's hilarious and truthful at the same time. Sincerely, Your Multi-purpose Everything User
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4076	Posted - 2014.08.22 11:43:00 - [42] - Quote I accidentally spawned into a match with a Boundless HMG rather than the Burst I have been using. After a week of using the Burst the Boundless felt like a fire hose. I killed 4 guys and not only was it no way near overheat, it also had over 200 rounds still in the clip. Using the Burst has definitely improved my aim. With the normal HMG your aim can get a bit lazy and you can get away with it. I have started to see a lot more Burst HMGGÇÖs in matches now. I ran into a squad of 3 of them today. Of courser I still managed to kill one of them before they took me out. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


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