DUST Search - Evaluation of the New Burst HMG

Fox Gaden wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

That would provide a bigger nerf than the weapon was buffed. The difference in damage per bullet at each tier of standard HMG is precisely 0.9 at each tier.

The burst HMG is intended to be the "sentinel shotgun" with a kill rate on tanked heavies of 2-3 bursts depending on level of tank in the target.

From my Evaluation of the New Burst HMG thread:

Fox Gaden wrote:

castba wrote:

Agree with everything although I have yet to overheat my MLR-A, let alone my Six Kin.
Love the new feel of the gun, much more enjoyable than the old burst (which I started using well over a year ago) and is a bit easier to kill those pesky acrobatic scouts.

However, I have to disagree with you on the damage nerf proposition Fox.
Whilst the DPS is very high, it is offset by the fast heat build up, speed at which ammo is consumed and slow reload all of which, if not managed in the heat of battle, put the user in a very difficult position.

I see it now as a more skill/experience orientated "high risk, high reward" weapon and one I sincerely hope stays as is.

It is possible that it just feels too powerful because I have been using HMG since 1.3 and I am used to firing in short precise bursts to conserve ammo.

If the FOTM crowd find it too hard to use, and it does not become the most used HMG variant, then I would be fine with leaving the Damage where it is.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4033	Posted - 2014.08.14 13:29:00 - [1] - Quote I am evaluating the New Bust HMG for my HMG Sentinel guide. The Burst HMG was not nerfed or buffed in Hotfix Charli, it was completely rebuilt from the ground up. As I stated in the HMG changes thread, so many variables were being changed at once that it was imposable to predict prior to field testing whether the New Burst HMG would be Overpowered (OP) or Underpowered (UP). Experts in the Sentinel community suspected it would be one or the other, and that it would have to be further tweaked in Hotfix Delta, after proper field testing, in order to balance it properly. My fist impression after one match with the Burst HMG where I went 20/5 solo, is that they got the GÇ£feelGÇ¥ right, but it is a bit on the OP side. Initial testing suggests that the balancing factors are working as intended, but that the DPS is still too high for those balancing factors to achieve balance for the weapon. I will likely be recommending a small damage nerf. Rate of Fire: The Rate of Fire feels right. It chews through ammo very quickly which acts as a balance factor. I am not a spray and pray heavy. I have been doing this since 1.3 and I try to aim with precision and not waste ammo. Yet mid match I found myself with 0 ammo in the clip and 0 ammo in the reserve (and no sidearm due to fitting limitations). Then after running to a Supply depot and completely topping up my ammo supply I again ran my reserve to 0 in under 2 minutes during a protracted 6 v 6 fight at a Research Facility medium socket objective. With a normal HMG I might only run my ammo reserve to 0 once in 20 matches, so running out of ammo in under two minutes is quite a dramatic difference. This definitely works as a balance factor for the Burst HMG, and will make supply management part of the decision making process for its user. I died at least once while reloading. Overheat: I overheated the Burst HMG at least 5 times during the match, mostly when fighting multiple assailants. With practice I expect I will get better at avoiding the overheat, but it will take skill and experience to avoid overheating in the middle of a fight. I think the heat buildup is in a good spot right now. If it was increased any further though, it could render the weapon ineffective, so increasing heat buildup would not be a good option for balancing it. I died at least once due to my weapon overheating. Burst pause: I find the shorter pause between bursts to be much easier to work with than the pause was on the old Burst HMG. Damage: Damage is a bit too high. Yes the HMG is supposed to be a beast, and the Burst is supposed to be even more of a beast than other HMGGÇÖs, but the Time To Kill with the New Burst HMG seems too low. People donGÇÖt have time to react. However, we need to be careful when adjusting damage. If my calculations are correct (is it 3 rounds per burst?) then reducing the damage of a round by 1 hp would reduce the DPS by 44.4 HP/s. If possible I feel it would be a good idea to reduce the Damage per round by 1 immediately, before it has time to become the FOTM and the cries for big nerfs start. I would like to evaluate it at 12 damage per round (Adv) and 13 damage per round (proto), before deciding if any further changes are needed in Hot Fix Delta. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4035	Posted - 2014.08.14 15:39:00 - [2] - Quote castba wrote: Agree with everything although I have yet to overheat my MLR-A, let alone my Six Kin. Love the new feel of the gun, much more enjoyable than the old burst (which I started using well over a year ago) and is a bit easier to kill those pesky acrobatic scouts. However, I have to disagree with you on the damage nerf proposition Fox. Whilst the DPS is very high, it is offset by the fast heat build up, speed at which ammo is consumed and slow reload all of which, if not managed in the heat of battle, put the user in a very difficult position. I see it now as a more skill/experience orientated "high risk, high reward" weapon and one I sincerely hope stays as is. It is possible that it just feels too powerful because I have been using HMG since 1.3 and I am used to firing in short precise bursts to conserve ammo. If the FOTM crowd find it too hard to use, and it does not become the most used HMG variant, then I would be fine with leaving the Damage where it is. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4035	Posted - 2014.08.14 15:41:00 - [3] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Good writeup, Fox. Question: Might the old, laser-precise dispersion mechanic be an appropriate way to balance the burst? No. But I would love to have that as a new Tactical HMG variant! Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4035	Posted - 2014.08.14 16:00:00 - [4] - Quote Moving a discussion from another thread to this one: Fox Gaden wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: That would provide a bigger nerf than the weapon was buffed. The difference in damage per bullet at each tier of standard HMG is precisely 0.9 at each tier. The burst HMG is intended to be the "sentinel shotgun" with a kill rate on tanked heavies of 2-3 bursts depending on level of tank in the target. From my Evaluation of the New Burst HMG thread: Fox Gaden wrote: castba wrote: Agree with everything although I have yet to overheat my MLR-A, let alone my Six Kin. Love the new feel of the gun, much more enjoyable than the old burst (which I started using well over a year ago) and is a bit easier to kill those pesky acrobatic scouts. However, I have to disagree with you on the damage nerf proposition Fox. Whilst the DPS is very high, it is offset by the fast heat build up, speed at which ammo is consumed and slow reload all of which, if not managed in the heat of battle, put the user in a very difficult position. I see it now as a more skill/experience orientated "high risk, high reward" weapon and one I sincerely hope stays as is. It is possible that it just feels too powerful because I have been using HMG since 1.3 and I am used to firing in short precise bursts to conserve ammo. If the FOTM crowd find it too hard to use, and it does not become the most used HMG variant, then I would be fine with leaving the Damage where it is. Breakin Stuff wrote: I still prefer the standard HMG personally as I tend to wind up engaging squads a lot. I dont believe in hunting duels and 1v1. I believe in pushing objectives. I have only played one match with the New Burst HMG, but I was fighting 2 or 3 people at a time quite often as the point I was defending was heavily contested. The overheat is a challenge in such situations, especially when people start jumping around to avoid being hit, but overall I found it effective. I might have had to pause and duck behind cover for a second to reduce heat buildup, but I play that way anyway. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4044	Posted - 2014.08.15 14:16:00 - [5] - Quote Snake Sellors wrote: it feels op because you aim with it, spray and pray is for the others After further testing I have come to this conclusion as well. I played 5 or 6 matches using an Advanced Bust HMG on a Minmatar Sentinel last night and this morning. I only saw two other Sentinels using a Burst HMG and I recognized one of them as a long time Sentinel from before the HMG was fixed. A Minmatar Sentinel suit melts like a candle in a blast furnace when facing a Burst HMG, so I learned to attach from behind and go for the head shot. I overheated several times in 1 v 1 fights against competent light and medium frame players that refused to stand still. When fighting a Burst HMG, it overheats so fast that if you can avoid getting hit by the first few bursts it is likely to overheat and render the Heavy helpless for several seconds. This is easier for Medium frame suits that can survive a glancing blow from at least one burst. Scouts have an easier time avoiding getting hit, but one mistake and they are dead. The burst is definitely the anti Scout HMG. Shotgun Scouts no longer make me panic when I am holding a Burst. Resupply Logi are going to absolutely Love the Burst HMG. I used up two fresh NanoHives in the middle of an Ambush match this morning. Seeing 0 ammo in my reserves is a common occurrence, so when I do find a NanoHive it usually has to replace close to 1000 ammo. Anyone who likes to spray and pray better have a good sidearm if they try the Burst HMG. One thing that I am still trying to get used to regarding heat management is that the Burst HMG usually fires one more burst after you take your finger off the trigger, and that last burst after you are done shooting often is enough to cause you to overheat. This has caused me to overhead on many occasions. Fortunately with the way I play, if it overheats when I am done shooting, I am likely already moving to cover when it happens. It is not unusual to overheat with just 60 ammo left in the clip so that not only do you have to wait for the heat to dissipate, but then you have to reload as well. So, it is not an easy weapon to use, but I am still loving it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4044	Posted - 2014.08.15 14:21:00 - [6] - Quote This morning I killed a Scout and then noticed a Remote Explosive on the wall behind him as his body dropped. I had time to comment about the Remote on coms before that last burst of my HMG went offGÇª the burst that goes off after you have taken your finger off the triggerGÇª the burst that went off just as I was looking at the Remote explosive on the wall 2m awayGÇª Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4051	Posted - 2014.08.16 14:53:00 - [7] - Quote I did some testing: 6 continuous bursts will overheat an Advanced Burst HMG. 7 continuous bursts will overheat a Prototype Burst HMG. 10 bursts will empty the clip of any Burst HMG. 35 bursts will use up all ammo reserves on any Burst HMG. After my tests were completed, deep in the Red Line, I was about to leave battle so that I could update my guide, when I was suddenly road killed by a rampaging LAV. Very unexpected and a fitting end to my test. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4062	Posted - 2014.08.18 12:12:00 - [8] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: but a dmg nerf of 2-3 wouldn't hurt it too much I believe, as it does an approximate 13.50-75 per round. A damage nerf of 3 would be a 23% nerf to damage. We are debating whether it is OP currently, but there would be no debate over it bying UP if it was nerfed by 23%. Nerfing damage by 1 point would be a 7.7% nerf. I believe that if the Burst HMG is found to be OP, then a 7.7% nerf would be a more reasonable approach, followed by further evaluation after. However, I am beginning to believe that it is only OP in the hands of highly skilled players, so a nerf may not be necessary. If a nerf is truly needed, everyone will be using it within two weeks. If it does not become FOTM, then I would be inclined to leave it alone. ... of course I am biased. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4063	Posted - 2014.08.19 14:40:00 - [9] - Quote Just to be clear the Burst HMG was changed because almost no one was using it before. Despite always being higher damage than a normal HMG, very few were willing to put up with the long pauses between bursts and the fast overheat. The shortening of the pauses between bursts was what makes the new HMG useable for me. As to the overheat, I expect that even the very best Sentinels will overheat the Burst HMG at least a couple times during a battle. Ammo resupply is also more of an issue than with any other Automatic weapon I have used. The Burst HMG is definitely a beast. But the drawbacks must still be putting some people off. I still have not seen more than two BURST HMGGÇÖs on a team at one time. If we see Nyan San running 4 of them in a squad, then we will know it is OP, but so far it does not seem to be any more popular than other weapons. I also find that if you are good at strafing and can avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the engagement it becomes quite easy to kill a Burst HMG Sentinel. If they donGÇÖt get you in their first few bursts they are likely to overhead, or run out of ammo in their clip. I even had a Shotgun Scout charge in at me head on, strafing and crossing my line of fire during the pauses between bursts and then shoot me in the fact from about 2m. The Burst HMG may do a beastly amount of damage, but unlike other HMGGÇÖs, it is not effective as a Spray & Pray weapon. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4063	Posted - 2014.08.19 15:46:00 - [10] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: as with every "burst" or "single shot" weapon, it could use a delay between shots, so it can't just be sprayed... Sure this one has an overheat, but you can still spray someone down without overheating it even if you don't get them in 1. Unlike the GÇ£BurstGÇ¥ Combat Rifle, you cannot get the Burst HMG to fire faster by feathering the trigger. Nor would a modded controller be able to increase itGÇÖs DPS in any way. The delay is there and there is no getting around it. It might be better to think of the Burst HMG like a very high damage, low rate of fire automatic weapon, as each burst functions like a single shot. With such a high rate of fire you will either hit with all the rounds in the burst or you wonGÇÖt hit with any of them, unless you just get a glancing blow. So it is essentially like a 6 shot automatic shotgun (7 shots at Proto). If you donGÇÖt fire continuously and you let it cool down a bit you can get 10 shots off before you have to pause for 6 to 8 seconds to reload. A normal HMG user will usually go through 3 fights before they have to reload, while a Burst HMG user will have to reload after every single fight, often having to reload in the middle of the first fight if their opponent is strafing and using cover. Reload time with full skills is 6 seconds, and over heat time is about the same (maybe 5 seconds?). I have won many encounters because my opponents donGÇÖt notice when I lock up from overheat or go into a reload cycle. Anyone who gives me 6 seconds to reload in the middle of a fight, deserves to die. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:33:00 - [11] - Quote This morning I went head to head twice with a guy in a GÇ£CovenantGÇ¥ Caldari Standard Assault suit with a GÇ£ToxinGÇ¥ SMG. Both times we were about 10m apart (optimal for both weapons) in an open field with no cover. He won both head to head encounters. He won the fights because he strafed properly and he strafed well. By GÇ£properlyGÇ¥ I mean that his movements were large enough to break the Aim Assist lock. By GÇ£wellGÇ¥ I mean that he switched directions often and he did not pause. (If you are not using a Mouse and Keyboard you can avoid the slowdown/speed up effect when changing directions by rolling the left thumb stick around its outer perimeter so that it does not cross the dead zone in the center.) In this encounter I was trying to precisely place each burst on him, but just as the burst was about to go off he would change direction and the burst would either miss or only inflict the low damage of a glancing blow where only the dispersed rounds would hit. Assault suits have enough health to take a few glancing blows, and have enough movement speed to strafe effectively. I also encountered a few other medium frame suits in that match which strafed effectively and beat me, but on a few occasions I managed to get a burst mid chest and end them quickly. My conclusions so far: The Burst HMG is effective for skilled players who place their bursts with precision and donGÇÖt waste ammo. The Burst HMG can be beaten by a skilled medium frame player who knows how to strafe properly and can shoot and strafe at the same time. The Burst HMG can be beaten by a skilled Scout who is proficient at avoiding getting hit while they move in close for a Shotgun or Nova Knife attack. Shotgun, Nova Knife, and Burst HMG will each instakill when they apply damage directly to the back of someoneGÇÖs head, but Scouts are better at sneaking up behind people than Sentinels are. As skilled players learn more about how the Burst HMG works, they will become more effective at countering it. Anyone who charges a Burst HMG without strafing or using cover is going to get mowed down like grass. The thing that has surprized me most while using the Burst HMG is how often I overheat, have to reload, or both in the middle of a fire fight and still manage to survive long enough to get my HMG back into action and kill the guy. It takes me 6 seconds to reload and an overheat must last at least 5 seconds. Of course I strafe as much as I can at an Amarr SentinelGÇÖs walking speed, and I get behind cover as quickly as possible, but when my gun is jammed or I go into a reload cycle I am always amazed when my opponents donGÇÖt go in for the kill. Recently I have been running the Advanced Burst on a Standard Sentinel suit with no sidearm due to fitting requirements, which should be a stupid and suicidal fit, but I am getting away with it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:44:00 - [12] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I also find that if you are good at strafing and can avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the engagement it becomes quite easy to kill a Burst HMG Sentinel. If they donGÇÖt get you in their first few bursts they are likely to overhead, or run out of ammo in their clip. I even had a Shotgun Scout charge in at me head on, strafing and crossing my line of fire during the pauses between bursts and then shoot me in the fact from about 2m. The first "few" bursts? Maybe a speed tanked Cal scout with a broken hitbox and lag assist can strafe a "few" bursts, but that's impossible otherwise unless the HMG user sucks. The risk in attempting that maneuver is far too high for it to be anything other than desperation. I also seem to find myself curiously unable to avoid getting hit in the first second or so of the encounter because I am generally dead at time 0. If not, in my Amarr logi (which BTW is not a whole lot faster than a Min sentinel) there usually is little other choice but to try and do as much damage as I can before I am dead so someone else can finish him off. Using the slowest medium frame suit does put you at a disadvantage when facing the Burst HMG. Against the Burst HMG speed tanking is more effective than Brick tanking. And if the Burst HMG gets a shot on your before you realize he is there, then yes, the fight is pretty much over by that point. Once the Burst HMG Sentinel shoots something, everyone within 50m who has stereo headphones will know exactly which direction the Burst HMG sentinel is in. You canGÇÖt miss that distinctive sound. I would always recommend attacking a Burst HMG Sentinel from behind if you can. Attacking one head on using strafing should be reserved for when you find yourself in front of one unexpectedly without available cover, or for those who are just really good and know it. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 12:50:00 - [13] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Have you guys decided yet whether or not the Burst HMG is too good? Fix suggestions? Not quite yet? Hard to say. -It mows down Noobs like grass. -Noobs find it too difficult to use. -Skilled Sentinels can use it to devastating effect. -Skilled Assault and Scout players can counter it. -A lucky shot can take out even the most skilled strafing Scout/Assault, so no fight against a Burst HMG is a sure thing. I donGÇÖt think the Burst HMG will be considered OP in PC matches once the experienced players figure out how to counter it, but it sometimes seems very OP in Pub matches. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:03:00 - [14] - Quote I would like to give a shout out to Shotty GoBang who I know is following this thread. I went up against Shotty and J0lly R0g3r in a Pub Skirmish last night. It was not long before my two squad mates and I were saying screw the objectives and started to focus all our efforts on hunting those squirrely scouts. I managed to get each of them a couple times but between the two of them they were responsible for 10 out of my 13 deaths. Some of the kills they pulled off on me had me laughing my ass off! Like me firing into a group of three Scouts and I see Scotty bail over a retaining wall, and then somehow while I am still exchanging fire with the other Scouts he has come up the stairs behind me and shoots me in the back of the head. WTF! And the scurrilous J0lly R0g3r is scary good with those knives! Pro Tip: If you have Shotty GoBang dead to rights in your sitesGÇª GÇªthen you are probably standing on a Remote Explosive. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:13:00 - [15] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I played a few matches with it on my lower SP heavy alt. It feels OP. It does too many things too well. It should either keep it's crazy DPS and get a significant range nerf (like 20m range--sort of like a shotgun on steroids), or get a DPS nerf (either a damage nerf or an increase to the burst interval). It's not my primary role, so I'll leave it to smarter people than myself to figure out how to balance it. I just wanted to share my experiences with it. You make a good point. If it does need to be nerfed, a range nerf would be a reasonable approach. Maybe reduce the range to what the Standard HMG had before Charli. I do not think that the burst interval, heat buildup, or rate of fire should be changed. Those seem to be in a sweat spot right now. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4070	Posted - 2014.08.20 13:17:00 - [16] - Quote Devadander wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: This morning I killed a Scout and then noticed a Remote Explosive on the wall behind him as his body dropped. I had time to comment about the Remote on coms before that last burst of my HMG went offGÇª the burst that goes off after you have taken your finger off the triggerGÇª the burst that went off just as I was looking at the Remote explosive on the wall 2m awayGÇª I still melee uplinks And you never see the remote till you have already clicked the stick lolz When no one else is dropping uplinks I switch into a Dren Logi suit and lay some done. I NEVER lay an uplink without putting a remote explosive on top of it. I am amazed at how many kills I get that way, and it makes the uplink last longer. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4076	Posted - 2014.08.22 11:43:00 - [17] - Quote I accidentally spawned into a match with a Boundless HMG rather than the Burst I have been using. After a week of using the Burst the Boundless felt like a fire hose. I killed 4 guys and not only was it no way near overheat, it also had over 200 rounds still in the clip. Using the Burst has definitely improved my aim. With the normal HMG your aim can get a bit lazy and you can get away with it. I have started to see a lot more Burst HMGGÇÖs in matches now. I ran into a squad of 3 of them today. Of courser I still managed to kill one of them before they took me out. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.