DUST Search - Shield vs. armor disparity.

Cassa-Nova wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Assertion 1: Amarr are overpowered.

Assessment: combining high buffer with a +20% shield breaking weapon, (all amarr weapons are +20%) the amarr readily outclass all shield suits because the only weapons with armor penetration of +20% are outlier weapons. Locus grenades, mass drivers, Flaylocks and remote explosives comprise the sum-total of armor breakers. Until an entire racial weapon profile ups to 20% there will be no equity.

Every single time I see someone saying this I want to tear out my hair. For that +20% damage profile we have to pay -20% against armour. Do you know how much of a pain in the ass that is? HUGE. Not only that but the scrambler rifle has been unchanged for months MONTHS, in fact its assault variant just got a nerf. It didn't suddenly get better it's always been this way and never once has it been complained about. But now that assault suits have been buffed to the point of usefulness the scramblers are getting more use because there's a viable platform that gives you an extra shot per level before over heat.

Scrambler rifle hasn't changed, your perception has.

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Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2016	Posted - 2014.08.14 12:22:00 - [1] - Quote Alright, time for an actual goodpost on this topic. I primarily utilize armor but moonlight with minmatar and caldari suits. My post and suggestins are based on observation and practical application, not whiteroom math. I am going to address a few assertions in the armor vs. Shields debate. This post is predicated on the idea that minmatar and amarr are directly opposed and should be balanced against one another. Likewise Gallente vs. Caldari. The premise further is that these opposing forces are intended to be roughly equal to their opposition. Racial profile premises Amarr Premise: slow, tanked to soak fire not dodge it. Armed to slice shields apart. Minmatar: Shield or armor tanked, Not as efficiently as tlothers. Versatility and speed reliance. rigged to avoid taking damage. Profiles intended to destroy armor as priority. Caldari: Shield buffer/recovery tank. Focused on taking just enough damage to harm enemies at rang, falling back for short periods for full recovery. Set for long range, low DPS armor breaching. Gallente Armor recovery tank. Lower Buffer than amarr, faster recovery. Damage profile set to destroy shields in high-dps close range. Weaponry-wise the caldari and gallente balance out. Their tanks do not. Minmatar and amarr weaponry does NOT balance out. Explosive weapons are outlier. Assertion 1: Amarr are overpowered. Assessment: combining high buffer with a +20% shield breaking weapon, (all amarr weapons are +20%) the amarr readily outclass all shield suits because the only weapons with armor penetration of +20% are outlier weapons. Locus grenades, mass drivers, Flaylocks and remote explosives comprise the sum-total of armor breakers. Until an entire racial weapon profile ups to 20% there will be no equity. Proposed Solution: Alter ALL Minmatar weaponry to +20% armor, -20% shields. Caldari vs. Gallente rifles: Caldari range outstrips Gallente damage application in close with the assault rifle only poorly applying damage compared to other rifles. Proposed fix: Increase rate of fire and magazine capacity of plasma rifles. Shield vs. Armor mechanic suggestions: Armor has received numerous buffs, and reactive plates are now a viable tank option. I suggest increasing Gallente armor regeneration and recovery, not buffer. Finally as the capstone note, and in my opinion the most important, lets remove the nerfs to shields and adjust from there. They were nerfed at the same time armor was buffed. Armor has continued seeing tweaks with shields untouched. TL;DR: make a +20% to armor weapon group. De-nerf shields and adjust slowly.
TechMechMeds Level 5 Forum Warrior 5086	Posted - 2014.08.14 12:39:00 - [2] - Quote I agree but my alt does not. A rolling nade is worth two in ambush.
RendonaSix Tech Dungeon Of Servility 240	Posted - 2014.08.14 12:40:00 - [3] - Quote Amarr is as it should be. Winning!. Amarr scout before it was cool.
Fleen Costell'o Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 451	Posted - 2014.08.14 12:42:00 - [4] - Quote Scrambler pistol 465% to head Ion pistol 165% to head (shild) DUALSHOCK 4 -¢-â-ç-ê-¦ -+-¦ -¦-ï-¦-¦-¦-é )
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3983	Posted - 2014.08.14 14:33:00 - [5] - Quote Fleen Costell'o wrote: Scrambler pistol 465% to head Ion pistol 165% to head (shild) 450 without proficiency (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 3162	Posted - 2014.08.14 16:59:00 - [6] - Quote I agree, I'm too lazy to explain why, but I agree. Member of a Dead Alliance and Dead Corp Coming through, still better than you FOTM corp hopping whores
Mordecai Snake Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance 64	Posted - 2014.08.14 21:48:00 - [7] - Quote But Caldari are the opposite of Amarr and Gallente are the opposite of Minmatar as far as tank goes. It makes more sense to give rails -20/+20 and projectiles -10/+10.
Cassa-Nova Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 4	Posted - 2014.08.14 22:37:00 - [8] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Assertion 1: Amarr are overpowered. Assessment: combining high buffer with a +20% shield breaking weapon, (all amarr weapons are +20%) the amarr readily outclass all shield suits because the only weapons with armor penetration of +20% are outlier weapons. Locus grenades, mass drivers, Flaylocks and remote explosives comprise the sum-total of armor breakers. Until an entire racial weapon profile ups to 20% there will be no equity. Every single time I see someone saying this I want to tear out my hair. For that +20% damage profile we have to pay -20% against armour. Do you know how much of a pain in the ass that is? HUGE. Not only that but the scrambler rifle has been unchanged for months MONTHS, in fact its assault variant just got a nerf. It didn't suddenly get better it's always been this way and never once has it been complained about. But now that assault suits have been buffed to the point of usefulness the scramblers are getting more use because there's a viable platform that gives you an extra shot per level before over heat. Scrambler rifle hasn't changed, your perception has.
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna 2912	Posted - 2014.08.14 23:24:00 - [9] - Quote I think shields are in a good spot specially after seeing how my brother runs his Caldari Assault, which is scary if you ask me. The problem with shields is that the users want to brawl they don't want to wait and rep, they don't want to mitigate damage they just want to be in the front lines getting insane kill streaks. Unfortunately rewarding this kind of mentality on shields will make them vastly overpowered unless serious nerfs are made to shields other aspects like repair, and penalties. But if this is the case shields will just become armor version II. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2031	Posted - 2014.08.15 00:24:00 - [10] - Quote Cassa-Nova wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Assertion 1: Amarr are overpowered. Assessment: combining high buffer with a +20% shield breaking weapon, (all amarr weapons are +20%) the amarr readily outclass all shield suits because the only weapons with armor penetration of +20% are outlier weapons. Locus grenades, mass drivers, Flaylocks and remote explosives comprise the sum-total of armor breakers. Until an entire racial weapon profile ups to 20% there will be no equity. Every single time I see someone saying this I want to tear out my hair. For that +20% damage profile we have to pay -20% against armour. Do you know how much of a pain in the ass that is? HUGE. Not only that but the scrambler rifle has been unchanged for months MONTHS, in fact its assault variant just got a nerf. It didn't suddenly get better it's always been this way and never once has it been complained about. But now that assault suits have been buffed to the point of usefulness the scramblers are getting more use because there's a viable platform that gives you an extra shot per level before over heat. Scrambler rifle hasn't changed, your perception has. No it means amarr have the only +20% racial profile against shields. There is no racial +20% vs armor except outlier explosive weapons. Examples: rifles. Combat rifle: +10% armor Rail: +10% armor Plasma: +10% shields Lasers: +20% shields This means amarr get the best hp buffer and the best weapons vs. Shields hands down. There are no equivalent racial profiles for cracking armor.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2031	Posted - 2014.08.15 00:28:00 - [11] - Quote Mordecai Snake wrote: But Caldari are the opposite of Amarr and Gallente are the opposite of Minmatar. It makes more sense to give rails -20/+20 and projectiles -10/+10. Nope and nope. Minmarar and amarr are the mortal enemies Gallente and caldari are mortal enemies. You balance enemies off each other, not vs. Their allies. Caldari and amarr are cautious buttbuddies.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 60	Posted - 2014.08.15 06:29:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mordecai Snake wrote: But Caldari are the opposite of Amarr and Gallente are the opposite of Minmatar. It makes more sense to give rails -20/+20 and projectiles -10/+10. Nope and nope. Minmarar and amarr are the mortal enemies Gallente and caldari are mortal enemies. You balance enemies off each other, not vs. Their allies. Caldari and amarr are cautious buttbuddies. He wasn't referring to enemies.Opposites. Amarr ARMOR Caldari SHIELDS Gallente DAMAGE Min DAMAGE AVOIDANCE This is a flawed example, admittedly, but it was what I assume he meant. In reality, it is far more complicated than this and balance cannot be achieved with weapon profile changes.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2039	Posted - 2014.08.15 06:33:00 - [13] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: He wasn't referring to enemies.Opposites. Amarr ARMOR Caldari SHIELDS Gallente DAMAGE Min DAMAGE AVOIDANCE This is a flawed example, admittedly, but it was what I assume he meant. In reality, it is far more complicated than this and balance cannot be achieved with weapon profile changes. I was more hoping to achieve damage PARITY, then work on balance from there. It's easier to balance things when you have a level offensive playing field. At that point it's a matter of tweaking.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2040	Posted - 2014.08.15 06:51:00 - [14] - Quote Also since most of the explosive weapons are minmatar it's simpler to use their damage profile. Since the minmatar are perpetually at war with the amarr it makes sense that their weaponry should be rigged to chop through amarr armor buffer. they counter the slow speed by being comparatively fast and maneuverable. The lasers eat them alive in practice. But the Minmatar should be doing significant amounts of damage to amarr armor. The Gallente and caldari are getting close to well-matched. Stand-off fighters vs. brawlers. The only problem for the gallente side is their recovery abilities don't measure up, and the assault rifle has issues applying it's damage as well as the other assault rifles.

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