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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
354
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Posted - 2014.08.12 20:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Amarr should of sucked it up and taken an inferior bonus like the rest of us. That is the only reason racial weapon bonuses are being talked about and not all suit philosophies have good synergy with weapon philosophies.
ADS weapons on shield tanks? Why? Mobility and low ehp is the hallmark of shield suits.
Short range blasters on armor tanks? Why? And don't tell me the gallente assaults can run kincats. They can, but why the hell would they sack all the e/hp? They would be inferior to the shield tanked suits then.
I just wish the cpm or CCP or whoever the hell keeps batting 1000 for Amarr would stop this ****. The assaults didn't need the heat reduction when the rest of the assaults had **** bonuses. They still don't need it, all assaults should be oriented towards slaying bonus wise not being good at a certain weapon, that's the commando. Rattatai was also going to remove the sidearm from the Amarr logi which was pretty absurd but nope... they get to have more equipment then an assault and carry a sidearm still. They should just give Amarr logi's one more equipment and have their uplinks take effect as long as the equipment exists. A combat logi, why? Why does CCP keep confusing the roles of suits. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
354
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:Joel II X wrote:How about adding more spool to the rail weapons and having the bonus decreasing said spool time? I'm a caldari assault (currently skilling up into one) and I only have one fit with the rail rifle. It's just a garbage weapon unless you use it for harassing people at a range.
That's because our suits aren't all that great for rail tech. Like I said in my other post, the suit philosophy and weapon philosophy do not fit together. It's all copy pasted from space warfare which isn't the same as infantry warfare.
Having high e/hp works better with rail tech, hence all the rail heavies/sentinels that people loathe. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
354
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Reload speed in the case of Caldari Assault is just....lame. However it needs to follow the "Weapon Support" theme that the other 3 have, so increasing DPS or defenses isn't gonna fly. Couple thoughts to kick around
~Reduced Charge & Lock Time for Caldari Weapons
~Reduced Recoil for Caldari Weapons
What Caldari weapon locks? Inb4 the swarm launcher, then why does my calmmando not get a bonus to swarms? Because it isn't hybrid rail? Well why don't minmmandos get bonus to remote explosives and grenades if it's solely based on damage type? ****'s ********.
Charge make a .2 second charge a .18 charge. It's useless, and reducing recoil on rail rifles would break them and make them OP. There isn't anything that can really be done with rail tech that won't break the weapons. They just need to stop it with these weapon specific buffs to assaults. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
354
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Reduced recoil would make the most sense, and it would definitely help the magsec out a bunch (since the bonus applies to both light and sidearm weapons). Recoil all the way, it shouldn't be anything else.
Commandos already have reload speed...don't understand why Caldari assault is also to reload.
I'd rather us not make Caldari Assaults with RR the next FOTM. Superior at range and in CQC, this is why we can never have a balanced game that people don't consider these things. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
354
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Reduced recoil would make the most sense, and it would definitely help the magsec out a bunch (since the bonus applies to both light and sidearm weapons). Recoil all the way, it shouldn't be anything else.
Commandos already have reload speed...don't understand why Caldari assault is also to reload. I'd rather us not make Caldari Assaults with RR the next FOTM. Superior at range and in CQC, this is why we can never have a balanced game that people don't consider these things. There are still superior CQC guns over the rail rifle, and the amarr assault is far more likely to become to next FOTM if anything with that kind of EHP, scrambler rifle, and damage mod stacking. They'll see to it that caldari assaults burn lol.
Well yeah just like the shotgun is better in CQC then the assault rifle or the mass driver has better AOE then a combat rifle.... but last I checked when a gun is too good its based on how well it performs in various situations and not that it performs the best in all situations. There are better CQC guns over the rail rifle even if it had less kick, but how many of those weapons have the rail rifles range? Last I checked rifle wise, the sniper rifle which has no reticle at the hip and cerebral palsy when quick scoped. The laser rifle is pretty much the worst gun in CQC. You reduce the recoil and the rail rifle will be pretty amazing in CQC (right now the spread makes it luck based as to whether or not the AR or CR will kill you in close range assuming you both can keep the reticle on one another.) Then compound that with the fact that the Rail Rifle will be amazing in long range engagements and you have the making of an OP combination.
Like I said, the failure of CCP to recognize these facts or give in to absurd demands from the community is what keeps us constantly in nerf/buff cycles. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:THE-PIMP-NAMED-SLICKBACK wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Reduced recoil would make the most sense, and it would definitely help the magsec out a bunch (since the bonus applies to both light and sidearm weapons). Recoil all the way, it shouldn't be anything else.
Commandos already have reload speed...don't understand why Caldari assault is also to reload. I'd rather us not make Caldari Assaults with RR the next FOTM. Superior at range and in CQC, this is why we can never have a balanced game that people don't consider these things. There are still superior CQC guns over the rail rifle, and the amarr assault is far more likely to become to next FOTM if anything with that kind of EHP, scrambler rifle, and damage mod stacking. They'll see to it that caldari assaults burn lol. Well yeah just like the shotgun is better in CQC then the assault rifle or the mass driver has better AOE then a combat rifle.... but last I checked when a gun is too good it's based on how well it performs in various situations and not that it performs the best in all situations. There are better CQC guns over the rail rifle even if it had less kick, but how many of those weapons have the rail rifles range? Last I checked rifle wise, the sniper rifle which has no reticle at the hip and cerebral palsy when quick scoped. The laser rifle is pretty much the worst gun in CQC. You reduce the recoil and the rail rifle will be pretty amazing in CQC (right now the spread makes it luck based as to whether or not the AR or CR will kill you in close range assuming you both can keep the reticle on one another.) Then compound that with the fact that the Rail Rifle will be amazing in long range engagements and you have the making of an OP combination. Like I said, the failure of CCP to recognize these facts or give in to absurd demands from the community is what keeps us constantly in nerf/buff cycles. Look dude...even if all rail rifle shots connected, it doesn't have enough DPS for competitive play.
DPS = competitive play.
Don't start with that, no one lands every single shot on an automatic weapon, hell no one lands every shot on any weapon. Anyone who says they do is a lier. You can land every shot but that is highly dependant on circumstances and can always have outside interference like lag.
DPS is a hypothetical comparison that does not account for engagement range or player error. It's a good stat to follow but it in no way determines if a weapon is competitive. If anything, ease of use, would have the number one impact of competitive play. And reducing recoil on the Rail Rifle would improve its ease of use by leaps and bounds. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Reduced recoil would make the most sense, and it would definitely help the magsec out a bunch (since the bonus applies to both light and sidearm weapons). Recoil all the way, it shouldn't be anything else.
Commandos already have reload speed...don't understand why Caldari assault is also to reload. I'd rather us not make Caldari Assaults with RR the next FOTM. Superior at range and in CQC, this is why we can never have a balanced game that people don't consider these things. Since you feel so strongly, why don't you list out the bonuses you would give each suit if you had complete control?
Alright well considering assaults are the medium suit slayer types:
Gallente: Armor rep efficiency. Downtime is the Gallente's greatest enemy with abysmal shields and high armor.
Caldari: Increased shield recharge. The Caldari are the shield tankers and as such, the assault should have large shield recharge per tick.
Minmitar: Reduced shield recharge delay. The Minmitar are speed tankers primarily and are designed to bounce in and out of combat.
Amarr: Increased armor plating efficiency. The Amarr are the slow but heavy tankers, they are designed to have the most amount of e/hp buffer and there is where they accelerate in killing.
You want weapon affinities, role a commando. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Malleus Malificorum wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:I-Shayz-I wrote:Reduced recoil would make the most sense, and it would definitely help the magsec out a bunch (since the bonus applies to both light and sidearm weapons). Recoil all the way, it shouldn't be anything else.
Commandos already have reload speed...don't understand why Caldari assault is also to reload. I'd rather us not make Caldari Assaults with RR the next FOTM. Superior at range and in CQC, this is why we can never have a balanced game that people don't consider these things. Since you feel so strongly, why don't you list out the bonuses you would give each suit if you had complete control? Alright well considering assaults are the medium suit slayer types: Gallente: Armor rep efficiency. Downtime is the Gallente's greatest enemy with abysmal shields and high armor. Caldari: Increased shield recharge. The Caldari are the shield tankers and as such, the assault should have large shield recharge per tick. Minmitar: Reduced shield recharge delay. The Minmitar are speed tankers primarily and are designed to bounce in and out of combat. Amarr: Increased armor plating efficiency. The Amarr are the slow but heavy tankers, they are designed to have the most amount of e/hp buffer and there is where they accelerate in killing. You want weapon affinities, role a commando. These are things that can more or less be addressed in suit base stats, there's no need for actual bonuses related to them.
There already are differences in suits and the base suits get those bonuses. These bonuses are specifically for assaults. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
Alright well considering assaults are the medium suit slayer types:
Gallente: Armor rep efficiency. Downtime is the Gallente's greatest enemy with abysmal shields and high armor.
Caldari: Increased shield efficiency. The Caldari are the shield tankers and as such, the assault should have large shield recharge per tick.
Minmitar: Reduced shield recharge delay. The Minmitar are speed tankers primarily and are designed to bounce in and out of combat.
Amarr: Increased armor plating efficiency. The Amarr are the slow but heavy tankers, they are designed to have the most amount of e/hp buffer and there is where they accelerate in killing.
You want weapon affinities, role a commando.
I'd be ok with this idea in general. I'd probably move away from the bonus to shield extender/plates for Caldari/Amarr and push for perhaps recharge rate and reduced speed penalty or something of that nature. You need to be particularly careful with defensive bonuses, as bonuses that add eHP are quite powerful, and can cause issues when some suits get it and others in the same role do not.
For Caldari I mean that they will recharge more per tick like the shield energizers, not that they will get higher e/hp like extenders. For Amarr the speed penalty reduction would probably be better as you say since this will counteract their major drawback. To me the assault bonuses should either play to the strengths of the suit or compensate its weaknesses. So the Caldari and Minmitar bonus would play to its strengths while the Gallente and Amarr Bonuses would counter act their weakness. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tectonic Fusion wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
Alright well considering assaults are the medium suit slayer types:
Gallente: Armor rep efficiency. Downtime is the Gallente's greatest enemy with abysmal shields and high armor.
Caldari: Increased shield efficiency. The Caldari are the shield tankers and as such, the assault should have large shield recharge per tick.
Minmitar: Reduced shield recharge delay. The Minmitar are speed tankers primarily and are designed to bounce in and out of combat.
Amarr: Increased armor plating efficiency. The Amarr are the slow but heavy tankers, they are designed to have the most amount of e/hp buffer and there is where they accelerate in killing.
You want weapon affinities, role a commando.
I'd be ok with this idea in general. I'd probably move away from the bonus to shield extender/plates for Caldari/Amarr and push for perhaps recharge rate and reduced speed penalty or something of that nature. You need to be particularly careful with defensive bonuses, as bonuses that add eHP are quite powerful, and can cause issues when some suits get it and others in the same role do not. For Caldari I mean that they will recharge more per tick like the shield energizers, not that they will get higher e/hp like extenders. For Amarr the speed penalty reduction would probably be better as you say since this will counteract their major drawback. To me the assault bonuses should either play to the strengths of the suit or compensate its weaknesses. So the Caldari and Minmitar bonus would play to its strengths while the Gallente and Amarr Bonuses would counter act their weakness. The Gallente's only weakness right now is sucking.
Are you using Gallente weapons while armor tanking? If so I wouldn't. It's one reason I don't want rail tech on Caldari. Although the Minmitar weaponry works well in CQC and dps for making quick strikes and the Amarr have good weapons for sitting still and tanking damage while aiming it doesn't work so well for Gallente and Caldari.
They are actually better reversed. Rail Tech with its focus on range works better for the high buffer and low mobility that Gallente have. While the short range plasma weaponry work better for Caldari as they are more mobile. |
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TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
For Caldari I mean that they will recharge more per tick like the shield energizers, not that they will get higher e/hp like extenders. For Amarr the speed penalty reduction would probably be better as you say since this will counteract their major drawback. To me the assault bonuses should either play to the strengths of the suit or compensate its weaknesses. So the Caldari and Minmitar bonus would play to its strengths while the Gallente and Amarr Bonuses would counter act their weakness.
Id stress that it's important to tie these to modules and not base stats. Giving base bonuses like a passive armor recharge per second, it actually discourages using reps since you have one already built in. Bonuses should encourage a certain fitting philosophies. I'd personally go with Gallente: Bonus to Armor Repairers Caldari: Bonus to Shield Rechargers/Energizers Minmatar: Bonus to Shield Regulators Amarr is kind of a goofball since its not really a repping sort of race but I want to avoid boosting eHP since the Amarr Assault will already have terrifying amounts of HP if it stacks a lot of Complex Plates. I'd probably go with one of the following. ~Reduction to Armor Plate Speed Penalty ~Bonus to Ferroscale Plate HP (similar effect, less slowdown, but brings the ferroscale to be more like normal plate HP) ~Bonus to Reactive Plates (A nice mix of HP and reps, without it getting out of hand)
Sounds good to me, though I doubt Rattatai and Logibro will do this. |
TYCHUS MAXWELL
The Fun Police
358
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:
For Caldari I mean that they will recharge more per tick like the shield energizers, not that they will get higher e/hp like extenders. For Amarr the speed penalty reduction would probably be better as you say since this will counteract their major drawback. To me the assault bonuses should either play to the strengths of the suit or compensate its weaknesses. So the Caldari and Minmitar bonus would play to its strengths while the Gallente and Amarr Bonuses would counter act their weakness.
Id stress that it's important to tie these to modules and not base stats. Giving base bonuses like a passive armor recharge per second, it actually discourages using reps since you have one already built in. Bonuses should encourage a certain fitting philosophies. I'd personally go with Gallente: Bonus to Armor Repairers Caldari: Bonus to Shield Rechargers/Energizers Minmatar: Bonus to Shield Regulators Amarr is kind of a goofball since its not really a repping sort of race but I want to avoid boosting eHP since the Amarr Assault will already have terrifying amounts of HP if it stacks a lot of Complex Plates. I'd probably go with one of the following. ~Reduction to Armor Plate Speed Penalty ~Bonus to Ferroscale Plate HP (similar effect, less slowdown, but brings the ferroscale to be more like normal plate HP) ~Bonus to Reactive Plates (A nice mix of HP and reps, without it getting out of hand) Sounds good to me, though I doubt Rattatai and Logibro will do this. Honestly I wish we could see this for both Logi's and Assaults, though Logi's to a lesser bonus.
And reset the whole equipment nerfs thing? Me too... me too... Logi's should be slightly weaker assaults with no sidearm and lots of equipment. Personally I don't even think scouts should have 2 equipment slots. I don't buy into the whole "Scouts should be able to fit a cloak and one other equipment" thing. Cloaks aren't mandatory to run a scout. I run some with cloaks and some without. It mostly serves right now as an excuse to make light logi suits, which cuts into the logis role. At least, if scouts can fit 2 equipment, it should be like logis where they can fit 2 at adv/proto. Since logis fit 2 at standard and 3 at adv/proto. |
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