Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0
HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing.

Nanite Injector: It's a ******* piece of ****. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle.
Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well.

Active Scanner:
Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle.
The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it.
So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange.

Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner

Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive.
The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one.
Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up.
It's not even complicated.

- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level

How about you not make **** up. 399.05 shields and 987.75 armor on an Amarr Assault is the max you can dual tank an assault suit. that's 1386.8 Total HP. against Laser Weapons its 1504 Effective HP. You're a hundred off by the rarest weapon profile. -Check the sig.

An HP buff is only being requested by people that want to salvage their precious slayer-logis

EHP = Effective Hit Points and varies by the weapon profile used against you. Laser at 120/80 is different from CR at whatever it is i forgetGǪ you get the point though?

I'd like to request/reiterate that we keep this thread constructive, courteous, and on topic.

Please do feel free to call out instances where flawed data is seen, and where/why that data is flawed specifically but let's aim to do so diplomatically and with an eye to conversation.

Also, on the note of calling out flawed data, I can state empirically that the final statement of the quoted post

is demonstrably inaccurate.

Three data points indicating that;
1. I have never been a 'slayer logi'
2. I have long held, and still hold, that logi survivability is in an inadequate space and needs reworked (all of this is within the context of running a full support fit)
3. I am not the only player numbers 1 & 2 apply to.

Precision, especially when it comes to numbers, is useful and welcome, but no amount of precision can create a constructive discourse if we let the environment turn overtly hostile, let's focus on precluding such an event.

Thanks,
Cross

100% lack of confidence in Apothecary Za'ki (poor track record).
100% confidence in Shayz (stellar track record).

- 50M SP Scout

I like the ideas i've read. Now one thing that bugs the hell out of me is that my logi Ck.0 is so damn slow. I have to use a CPU mod since my suit was robbed of CPU and I carry proto equipment. In the other 3 lows I NEED to have a reactive plate, cardiac reg and a kincat so I can keep up with the heavy I'm repping.

I'd love to see my logi get a little bit faster.

I run support logi and AV the vast majority of the time and dabble in Commando, Scout, and Assaults.

For context, my comments are made in light of the recently released Hotfix Charlie notes as well.

Logi Suit Balancing and Optimization:

1) If we go with Rattati's concept that frames tiers should have standardized slot layouts then we clearly need to ensure the suits are carrying the appropriate reservoir of CPU and PG. I suspect all Logi suits should be tweaked a bit but the most obvious concern is the Cal Logi - if you drop a low slot you clearly need to increase the CPU of the suit.

2) Survivability should be competitive with other suits...if you can't survive long enough to deliver equipment, reps, and revives then you have limited viability. Broadly, buffer will be more important than regen and regen is arguably more important to assault flavor suits. Recommendation would be to buff the base tank style of the racial suit or give an efficacy bonus to extenders and plates per logi level.

3) Equipment bonuses (beyond CPU/PG reduction) should clearly be broadened to more than a single equipment flavor which clearly advantages some racial options over others, i.e. Min Logi. I would recommend taking a look at Cass Caul's proposal on broadening the bonus as a start point.


Equipment Comments

1) It may create some hate eye pointed at me but we should make RE's an option to carry in the Grenade slot instead of an equipment slot. Hear me out...you skill into it via the weapon tree and it uses the same access skills as the grenade. Why is it considered an equipment slot? There is also something about making you choose between your Core Locus, Wyrikomi AV grenade, or standard variant RE (that is more lethal then either of those two previously noted offerings!).

Commando Optimization:

1) Recommend that Min / Cal get share the damage bonus on Swarms and Amarr / Gal share the damage bonus on PLC. These pushes the needle slightly in favor of the Commando suppression / combat support role.

Swarm Launchers

1) Velocity of swarm missiles needs to noticeably increase...Drop ships outrunning swarms borders on the ridiculous. I'm pretty deep into SP investment for SLs and honestly the damage they deliver now is adequate but delivering the damage to a drop ship in particular is very sketchy.

2) Lock range of SLs need a very mild increase. Recommendation would be to increase the lock range to 200m...the additional 25m's of range would be very well received and open up engagement opportunities noticeably.

The Minlogi + sentinel combo is arguebly the best duo in the game, because of the bonus the min has on the reptool and the speedy nature of the suit compared with 4 equipment slots. Now imagine a Core focus reptool with the suit bonus of Pro Min logi and a extra lvl 5 reptool operation bonus. To me that sounds OP and if people would call that OP they're right for once.

Logo mko

A fix to the "false positive" revive indicators.

Easier lock on mechanic for rep tools (prioritizing in crowds, etc.)

Actual bonuses on equipment skills, like more precision on scanners, more nanites on nanohives, more reps on repair tool, etc.

Min-logi = me = all possible roles including assault dropship pilot when it absolutely has to be there ... right now.

I agree with comments about ehp buffs, regardless of minutae about maths. Its hard to support your buddies when you are dead.

I agree that some sort of logi role homogenisation would be good, allowing logi to excel at one support role and compete with the other logi suits, leaving the remainder of non logi suits a close 3rd in capability.

Switching equipment seems laggy with me, it could be that there is a server side request to check if I have the equipment, making it slower (about 350 miliseconds) and if so I expect there is little I can do aboout that. Seemless switching between logi equipment would be a boon.

A massive change in passive EWAR mechanics would help all classes but especially the fragile logi suits. Give the vehicles an appropriate signature. Make the vehicles show up at a much greater distance. Make all suits more scannable at closer ranges, the equation should be fairly simple to get right. If a scout is standing next to me I expect to be able to see him on my passive, at that point he is taking up a significant portion of my passive scan radius and it should be obvious he is there. Tanks are especially bad for zooming in at high speed with no signature until they are within meters of you. Better EWAR capabilities for Logi suits would be much appreciated but I don't have an exact mechanic in mind. It seems like a dedicated support character should be able to do better than it currently does.

While you are at it with EWAR, please make all hostile and allied turrets show up on TACNET and in the overview map, nice big glowing icons, all the time please. They have infinite ammunition and lots of HP, we should be able to detect them at great distances.

Anyone standing within 10m of a drop link should show up on it's passive scan, it can see them (except for cloaked scouts though) people camping links is silly, it should be noticable.

Let us restock HAV and LAV ammunition with prototype nanohives. Just a little bit.

Give the logi "feedback repair" while actively repairing other suits with a rep tool. % based on suits and skills of course. 5-10% total perhaps?

From the AV support role, Swarm Launcher missiles fly far too slow, they can already be easily defeated by going round obstacles, they should at least be able to catch up with fleeing vehicles much faster than they currently do.

Reduce the fire rate of all (non assault) scrambler rifles by 50%. If no one has told you already, they are being massively abused, people are using modded controllers etc and firing at the same rate as an assault scrambler for (approx) X2 the DPS of any rifle weapon. Not directly related to Logi I know but thought I would slip it in here ;)

Good comments.

1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up.

Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down).

2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed.

Good comments.

1) Short answer on RE "one buttoning" is I don't know. I'm just commenting on the fact the RE is skilled via the weapons tree and is the only equipment option that doesn't give some kinda of bonus based on racial / role bonuses. As for ideally how I would like to see the RE be used in a 'nade slot you have a few options (most of which I assume you won't like ) such as using the grenade button essentially as a weapon switch function for REs, or perhaps it's an instant toss (similar to nades or REs in hand now) and if you want to go to the detonator you use normal control schemata or if you've emplaced your limit the detonator automatically comes up.

Either way it's not a major issue for me....toss range is more sketchy as far as REs go. Honestly, I would like you to have to emplace them by holding down the trigger for 2 or 3 seconds (with skill investment to bring the time down).

2) Trust me...way on board with longer lock range. Is 300m the right range, I don't know, but I figured that 200m was much more palatable than 300m since that would be a pretty serious adjustment. Again...missile velocity is a higher priority for me personally but they both really need to be buffed.

Role: priority target, AV, Sentinel CQC, Commando suppressor.

Mostly of note are drop uplinks. They diminish the value of needles, rep tools and map control by making it easy to spam out seemingly dozens of the things into an area making it almost impodsible to clear them. Needles are in disfavor because uplinks are cleaner and more reliable.

Rep tools: easy to use. Rarely deployed. There needs to be a shield rep tool badly so shield tankeers can compete with active rep armor suits.

Nanohives: armor rep hives allow solo pubstars to eliminate the need for squad support. Most players use them in preference to rep tools as dropping two armor hives is more efficient than a rep logi.

Needles: hardly anyone uses em. Most people prefer using uplink respawns.

Scanners: have replaved most battlefield resupply and support tools as preferred method

Commandos: have no functional value over the new assaults beyond better weapon selection and poorer fitting capability. The slower speed is going to kill them.

Logistics Mk.0

Injectors:
WP as incentive is nice,but if a MLT frame can walk up and tap O to negate your Pro needle then the problem still remains.
Doesn't really help shield tankers.
-Need a needle priority system that uses the HIGHEST level needle when reviving.
-Possibly reduce the amount of armor refilled and give a comperable amount of shields instead.

Rep tool:
Neon "kill me" sign.
Can't outrep a MLT weapon with a Pro rep tool.
Places logistics firmly on the frontlines of combat with its insanely short reach.
Provides 0 incentive other than WP farming.
Allies don't know they're being repaired.
Doesn't really help shield tankers.
-Remove the rep tool line to aid in logistics survival,leave the lock on boxes.
-Give damage resistance while using (something like 65% to all damage)
-Increase range by dramatic amounts for the logistics class.
-Return the rep tool glow,but have it work like hit detection so an ally can see which side they are being repaired from
-Negate shield recharge delays while used on allies,or recharge 25% of shields per hp/s restored. (eg sixkin 88 hp/s so 25% of 88) possibly reduce armor repair rate to compensate. Presto a rep tool that helps shield and armor.

Hives - Any-
Too easily destroyed by any stray explosions.
Low carrying capacity.
Low refilling amounts. (nanites)
Annoying when a MLT frame stands on top throwing grenades at no one to use them faster.
-Explosive resistance increase so it actually takes effort to destroy them.
-+1 carried per level logistics bonus
-Increased nanites -or- burst variants that refill faster but have lower nanites (think compact nanohives).
-Disable grenades being refilled

Scanners:
Dat cooldown.
-Nuff' said

Uplinks:
Actually alright

R.E.s:
The description says volitile chemicals yet i see scouts throw them from hights taller than their own suit,and sling them as if they are throwing frisbees.
Are considered equipment yet can be refilled at nanohives.
-Have them explode killing only the thrower if dropped from too high a height or slung with too much momentum
-Disable refilling from hives

Logistics suits:
30 more eHP than a scout
Slower than heavier tanked mediums
Bigger hitbox despite having less eHP
Doesn't have the best regen despite having less eHP
Doesn't have the best eHP despite its speed.
When run as a support unit it costs easily 2x as much with 1/2 the survival


Since logistics has more in common with scouts (ewar,equipment) logistics should be made to mimic them.

-Keep the low eHP but in exchange give speed/stamina,regen amount and speed,and a smaller hitbox.
This way it establishes a theme,support is fast and evasive,while killing is strong and durable.

-Cut equipment costs by 50% minimal



Based on personal experience,i would prefer to be harder to hit with better regen than have higher eHP.
eHP just makes it too tempting to fight instead of support.

I am, by no means, a logistics merc, but I would like the WP rewards for equipment to be closely reviewed. Triage and Guardian WP's seem to be incredibly high while Intel Kill Assists are pathetically low.

My point was uplinks as mobile spawn points that can be dropped a dozen at a time lessen the need for recovery equipment. It's often faster to have four people revive at an uplink than to needle and rep each one.

Also uplinks reduce the need for map control and good movement habits. because uplink spam means you can instapop back up right on top of a contested objective. In all cases except outliers, he who spams links wins.

I don't think one piece of equipment should overshadow all others that much.

I didn't read anyones post above me so may be repeating someone else:

Logis should have High ehp with crappy recharge/repair rates to take some hits while doing logi work so the logi/slayer role would be less desirable than pure slayer (assault).


Logis spamming equipment is still ridiculous, 4 different SETS of hives spammed, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS, go to supply depot, 4 SETS of uplinks, go to supply depot, 4 more SETS of links, and suddenly the enemy team hits a LAG WALL when they get in range of all the spam. Would love to see a hard cap on equipment one player can drop to keep the garbage spam logis from filling rooms/areas with so much equipment that one flux gives the other team an orbital ( if you manage to get close enough to the lag wall to limp arm a flux)


Please fix lame spam/glitch 9 uplinks at the highest point of a map, usually 2 feet inside a wall texture where even a flux can't remove it. Don't know if it is fixable but how about you need a 3 meter radius of flat ground surrounding an area for an uplink to 'stick'.

This has been delayed due to an unexpected tech barrier.

Perhaps I'm just lucky but even when actively trying to create the equipment lag situation (several full proto logi deploying everything they could around the underground bunker depot) I have yet to encounter this myself which makes me strongly wonder if the equipment/lag correlation isn't either a false positive or more complex than simply 'more equip = more lag'.

However, even with my own testing regimes giving a negative result on that correlation, there is clearly still something happening and this serves as a good reminder to investigate further and talk with CCP about it in greater depth.

Cheers,
Cross

I primarily run Min Logi. STD in Pubs, ADV/PRO in FW, and PRO in PC.

1. Equipment spam has got to go. Hey, hey, ho, ho! Even something as simple as removing all dropped equipment when changing fits. Respawn in the same fit? Equipment stays. Not sure how easy of a hotfix this would be. This is a double edged sword, as my Link Spam fit and Hive Spam fit would not be usable one right after the other, but maybe this is a good thing?

2. One equipment bonus on a suit that is made to carry a wide range of equipment? That makes no sense to me, especially when two races get the better end of it with rep tools and links. A flat 15% bonus to all equipment (while still keeping the current main equipment bonus) would go a long way in helping out the pack mules.

3. eHP has been "king" for a while, but I am not looking for Logis to have any extra HP. They should be able to regen much faster than other suits imho. They are already slower, with less HP, and no sidearm. What is the big deal if they can duck behind cover and quickly get back to supporting their team? A slow speed, low HP, slow regen suit in combat is a terrible support suit if it can't stay alive long enough to do its damn job. Provide efficacy bonuses to Shield and Armor Regen modules? I started a thread on this subject and it turned into Slayer Logi QQ...

4. Add. An. Accept. Revive. Prompt. Good lord, why is this not a thing yet?

5. Quick switch to favorite equipment. We have no sidearm, so why can't we add a favorite equipment slot, that pressing R2 will quick switch to? This idea has been brought up many times, and always seems to fall by the wayside.

6. Please dial in the select wheel, I swear that thing is more finicky than that gold digging Kate Upton. The delay and lack of accuracy makes switching equipment frustrating sometimes in the heat of battle. See number 5 above.


There are a lot of good ideas in this thread so far. Shayz also has some great suggestion threads as well. How many of these are feasible to implement, I have no idea. I'm just glad it is finally on the table.

I agree that I it does go regen it is module/race specific. Things have been HP buffed before and it doesn't necessarily solve issues, it often creates more.

The thing with a straight up HP buff is it will allow the QQ crowd to ***** and moan more about the "slayer" logi and 1k HP logi's following 1.5k heavies


Also regarding equipment spam, I posted earlier about a timed decay on deployed equipment. As an example uplinks and hives dropped and forgotten, if they are not depleted within a certain time frame then they decay & pop. Not sure on whether that is even possible in the current HF route. But it may encourage a more tactical deployment of equipment as and when is needed as oppose to a drop and forget mechanic.

It's a shame about the nanite injector WP not coming through in Charlie.

There are some very good ideas knocking about all of which would give a positive effect to the logi class. However I would like to hear what CCP have in mind as what they think the logi/support role is all about. Some of the biggest issues I have seen is how everyone perceives a role. So I'm kinda asking for that feedback from CCP as it could help to focus what is and isn't possible.

Mainly because I don't see why I shouldn't be able to kill some one to defend myself. A damage reduction invalidates the SP I have invested into a weapon. Any slayer suit has a bonus to a weapon type, mine doesn't so anyone who gets a logi suit knows it is not combat efficient but can be effective. Hope that clarifies it a bit.

I would like to see skills to further specialist in one equipment type. Call the skills (Equipment Type) Calibration or (Equipment Type) Proficiency. These skills would further allow logistic specialists to be the absolute best at what they do.

For example...

Repair Gun Calibration
Prerequisite: Repair Tool Operation IV
Rank x5
+2% to repair gun amount per level

This is obviously something off the cuff, but you get the idea.

Some other thoughts:

• eHP for logisitic dropsuits should not increase
• Increasing movement speed for logistic dropsuits would be useful and fair
• WP from equipment needs to be closely evaluated. Triage and Guardian rewards are too high. Intel Kill Assist is too low.
• Logistics dropsuits do not need a sidearm

Howdy Ya'll, Proto Minmatar logibro here.

I had an idea based on what I perceived each races combat philosophy to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Amar: Mid range, slow moving continuous firefights.
Give the (it hurts to type this) repp tool bonus that the Minlogi has to them. It never made much sense to give it to the logi with the lowest health and have them in the front lines. It would be better served on the most combat oriented Logistics suit, paired with the Sentinel with the highest armor HP. They would be a terror on the battlefield.

Caldari: Long ranged, sustained engagements
Keep the bonus to nanite injectors. Also the one to ammo nanohives, but add increase amount carried buy 1 per lvl. This would help when setting up forward and defensive positions. It will also allow for the Calogi to move with the battle as the situation dictates.

Gallente: Short range, quick CQ brawlers
I always thought the Galogi bonus was a little weak(the fact that its tied to the scanner, not the bonus itself), so I suggest also giving them the Calogi bonus to Armor Repair nano-hives. Give them this, but not the +1 per. This would help get Federation soldiers back in the fight faster after a brush up as well as allowing the them to know weather a counter offensive was inbound.

Minmatar: Quick, hit and run Guerrilla warfare
While the repper bonus is awesome, giving it to the Amlogi is (IMO) the best thing to do. So what about the Minlogi? Give them a minor(very minor I.E +1% damage per lvl) bonus to remotes/proxies and also the Amlogi's droplink bonus. Now before True starts with the "the droplinks are Amar tech" jabba wabba, hear me out.

The Minmatar are about speed. Hit them hard, fast, and bug out. The bonuses I described would best fit their guerrilla tactic style of play. Setting an ambush on a supply convoy with proxie's, RE's in and around the road, with droplinks set in strategic locations. Then spawning in just as the frist proxy's blow. That to me sounds very Matari.


So you other logi's mull it over and let me know.

Cal Logi lately (Well I usually swap out to a different suit because I'm more usefull that way after I deploy all my equipment)

See that phrase between the parentheses? That shouldn't be necessary if one decides to spawn in with a support role. I recently made a quick post in this thread. Added the posts at the end of this post for your convenience (actually I don't feel like spending the energy to go to deep into this topic before we get a glimpse that CCP changes their attitude towards the support role: eg. The original idea of reducing speed of logis, just to make assault more viable & ignoring all feedback from the 1.8 changes)

Besides that...I'm supposed to support the team...I need to run around the battlefield from ally to ally...I can't with the current pool of stamina and regen...(the suit is called LOGISTICS for fucks sake) unless I sacrifice all my low slots to some modules.

---

In short: CCP drop the passive support role thing, it's not even a thing and drives the 'experience and effectives' to the lowest point it can get.

This is the saddest thing I have read in a while. That's what I get for getting my hopes up...