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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2409
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Posted - 2014.08.04 16:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CPM1,
Hotfix Charlie is shaping up to make assaults not suck quite so badly, scouts are being tweaked, and word has it logi/sentinels are on the agenda for Delta. Dozens of minor and major changes are taking place all over Dust 514. ****, I mean, we are about to have nova knives capable of destroying HAV's for chrissakes. Don't you think it is about time we sent a message to CCP that we need a respec? You are our advocates. You have CCP's ear.
I'm asking politely and I'm open to hear your arguments against it... though I have heard many MANY arguments against it and none of them have convinced me yet.
Sincerely, Ripley
P.S. Judge Rhadamanthus, please sign my titty.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2410
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Posted - 2014.08.04 16:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Mostly because even after the heavy nerf goes live I don't want to have to re-distribute all those points? I'm happy with my choices and don't want to have to go redo everything.
Now if CCP offers an opt-out of respec, I care a lot less. but I don't want to spend an hour trying to remember what I had where.
I've heard this complaint before, and it has some merit to it. It wouldn't take you longer than 15 minutes to redistribute your SP if you were given a respec, but I get it, your time is valuable. You answered your own question with this one: have the respec be voluntary. You must submit a support ticket to request one. This would keep CCP from having to run the respec script on people who haven't been online in months anyway.
Saves you time. Saves CCP time. It's a good idea.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2415
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:Wut wut in the butt butt
Please keep this thread constructive.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2415
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:You filthy swine! At least pull my hair if you are going to call me names.
Please keep this thread constructive and on-target. I am attempting to invoke a reasonable discussion surrounding respecs vs. the community vs. CPM1.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2415
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yankie Doodle wrote:They are NOT needed....... if u have 50,000,000+ sp.
So for you a respecs is a non-issue. Like I posted earlier, the optimal way to issue a respec would be voluntarily. You must open a support ticket to "opt in" to the respec. If you are happy with your skills then no need to open a ticket.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2415
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Apocalyptic Destroyer wrote:Seriously? Y'all want respecs after every Hotfix.
I don't want one after every hotfix. I just want a respec after CCP Rattati has finished his dropsuit overhaul. You have to admit that he has effected some very tangible buff/nerfs to certain dropsuits. I'm not debating if those changes are good or bad; that's a topic for another thread. I'm saying that the changes he has made have altered how players use certain dropsuits. This, in other MMO's, typically warrants a respec of some kind.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2421
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Posted - 2014.08.04 19:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Beastlina wrote:So far I've only seen that peeps with a high amount of sp don't want respecs while people with around 10m-25m do. There is not really a reason to disagree with a respec other than you don't want other players to spec into something that might give you trouble or annoy you. It's lazy and selfish.
"You don't need one because I don't need one".
This is the most often repeated anti-respec talking point. It's pretty selfish honestly, but that's New Eden for you. Veterans are not going to do new players any favors. We cannot appeal to them, but we can appeal to CPM1 since they were elected to be our advocates.
I sincerely hope I will see at least two of the CPM1 elect in this thread weighing in. I want to know their opinions on the subject and if they are representing our interests.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2421
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Posted - 2014.08.04 19:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Soulja Ghostface wrote:Respecs require some work client side, Which is not going to happen because legion ruined more peoples trust then just their players but also sony. Now that thats on CCPs record I doubt anybody else will support them after lying to sony. Dust may not ever get a client side fix (Respec) ever again.
I'm fairly certain that SP accrual is stored server side. Letting that kind of data be stored client side could allow players to modify it... and we both know how that would turn out.
CCP would have to run a script one each player's account that requested a respec. This script would unallocate all of their SP server side. Upon their next login they would synchronize with the server and bingo: 100% unallocated SP.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2421
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Posted - 2014.08.04 19:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:I have publicly stated in the past, more than once, that I think respecs are horrible horrible things that should never ever happen ever ever. Skill points are always increasing, and it's easy to get new roles as your skill points expand. Respecs, in my opinion, just encourage Fit-Of-The-Month speccing. And contrary to popular belief, it will not kill you to use a standard or advanced suit for a while.
That being said, if you want one, you guys need to make a centralized and clear demand for it, not a spamfest that just gets removed, locked, or banned. Feedback/Requests would be the best place for such a thing.
The big thing is that respecs are very hard to do optionally, and are generally coupled with major releases. (My personal guess: If skill points transfer to Legion, you'll get to spend them again, for instance.) A lot of people actually find respecs very irritating, because they have to reset everything so they can play again. Optional respecs are very time consuming because they have to be done through the ticket system.
Thank you Soraya. The FotM argument doesn't particularly move me since the players most interested in FoTM fits usually bank 1m+ SP before every major drop anyway. Repec or not, their goal is achieved... but I digress.
How are we not presenting a centralized demand for this in General Discussion? Around hotfix time dozens of players post threads, the same few people (usually veterans with 40+mil SP) oppose them, while newer players request respecs. CCP ignores these requests and most CPM seem to clam up. The most I have EVER heard in recent history about respecs from a CPM was IWS saying to ask again around Delta.
Plus, you and I both know that Feedback and Ideas does not have the traffic that General Discussion does.
You are probably right, by the way, when/if Legion launches we will get an SP refund of some form... but that's potentially years away. We MIGHT have an alpha in 2015, but that's being conservative. We the players have quite a while left in Dust 514 and I want to spend that time with our SP invested wisely.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2422
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Posted - 2014.08.04 20:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Sure, but in General Discussion, Logibro will o_o at you and lock your thread because it doesn't belong there.
... true.
Soraya Xel wrote:My personal opinion is that you already invested it. Whether you invested it well or badly, you're kinda past that point once you've spent it.
Some of the skills we invested in are changing... some skills are changing more than others, but the point still stands. We invested in skills expecting them to do X, then CCP made them do Y and now CCP is asking us to live with the "choice" of picking Y... we didn't invest in Y, we invested in X damn it.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2422
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Posted - 2014.08.04 20:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Anarchide wrote:...I'm not sure the Swarm Launcher deserves my precious SP anymore...
It is getting some balancing in Charlie I hear. I'm waiting to get excited until after I have a chance to use it a bit.
Eruditus 920 wrote:Though CCP will never come out and state this, they will not give a SP refund because it would discourage Aurum/Booster sales.
You might be right about this. I would love to hear CCP's counterargument to this point.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2445
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Posted - 2014.08.05 12:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:The very nature of the SP system is designed around not having respecs. Which is why they're never offered in EVE, unless the skill in question is actually removed from the game. (Which happens extremely rarely.)
Games have respecs because they have a cap on skill or talent points you can spend, so you occasionally need to redistribute them. But games with infinite SP like EVE and DUST it is intended for you to continue to play to unlock additional roles and abilities.
From a game design standpoint, I see what you are saying, and in Eve Online's case you are 100% correct. Let's please not forget that Eve Online's balance is in a much better state that Dust 514; Eve Online can boast racial ship, weapon, and module symmetry and a fully-featured tutorial.
Let us also not forget that, up until recently, new players' starting fits all had the assault rifle instead of their racial rifles. Can you imagine how many players dumped hundreds of thousands of SP into the assault rifle thinking it was the preferred weapon to use with an Amarr medium dropsuit?
Your argument would be 100% valid if Dust 514 more balanced and actually taught new players the proper way to fit their dropsuits, but it does not. It allows new players to make poor choices early on without first teaching them the correct way of doing things.
TL;DR - If Dust 514 had a tutorial explaining what modules, weapons, and equipment pair well with each race then if new players ignorantly spend their SP it is their own fault.
Soraya Xel wrote:I can't trade my Bachelor's Degree in Game and Simulation Programming for one in Computer Science just because I work in IT instead of game development. If I want a different degree, I have to go back to school. Similarly, your clone learns new things over time, it can't just change what it already learned into something else.
Soraya... please... we have micro-wormholes that transport us to the battlefield, guns that magnetically throw plasma, cloaking technology, clouds of nanomachines that repair our armor, and the ability to move our consciousnesses to a new body upon death... are you really going to make a lore-based argument now?
KING CHECKMATE wrote:I dont EVEN NEED A RESPEC, but every time I get one this game has some new air to it, me being able to use different stuff!
I second this sentiment. CCP Logibro or CCP Rattati, if you are reading this thread, a respec in the near future will lure players back into Dust and each one of them has the potential to buy AUR. In addition, existing players who never left will be pleased some of their old friends are returning and suddenly the game is made less stale for them. It will please a large percentage of your playerbase.
LT SHANKS wrote:I say, "Yay," to respecs.
Yet another player who wants a respec.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2445
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Posted - 2014.08.05 16:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kevall Longstride wrote:For me there are only two circumstances that respecs and partial respecs might be considered as possibly required. When an entire branch of the skill tree has had to be changed such as when the LLAV's had to be removed. Or when racial parity in a weapon or suit class is going to be achieved, for example if the other races sniper rifles should make an appearance.
If as a result of any upcoming changes I feel a respec is warranted, I'll of course support it but if I think it's going to lead to another FOTM situation that might lead to yet another scramble calls for respecs 6 months down the road, then I be more reluctant to do so.
Kevall, I'm glad to hear your opinions on this.
Do you personally agree that Dust 514's NPE was able to educate a new player on the pros and cons of different modules, weapons, and dropsuits on launch? Were there militia weapon variants for players to try all modules, weapons, and dropsuits on launch?
The answer to the second question is obviously "No". The first is more subjective, but I feel most players would say "No".
How can you say Kevall Longstride wrote:because it makes the choices you made in the skilling of your Merc meaningless. when our choices didn't mean much to begin with? I have known several new players who made the mistake of skilling into things that made sense according to the starter fittings (e.g. shield skills because the Amarr MEDIC fit has two shield extenders for some stupid reason). Now they want to stick with the Amarr dropsuits, but they have invested a lot of their SP into shield skills. That's just one example, of course.
And the FotM argument doesn't fly. FotM people are going to fit FotM regardless of if they get a respec or not. Those type of people often save 1mil+ SP before every update so they can ride the gravy train until the next update. Respecs are not going to change their behavior one way or another so they are irrelevant to this argument.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2457
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Posted - 2014.08.06 12:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Topher Mellen wrote:On that note I have to mention pistol parity. I invested well over 3 million SP in the Scrambler Pistol when it was the only pistol in early uprising. When do we get a sidearm tree repec?
Sidearms are currently up for review in Delta. Hopefully we will see militia versions of the newer sidearms in Delta too.
Maybe after Delta we can expect some form of SP refund.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2457
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Posted - 2014.08.06 13:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Broonfondle Majikthies wrote:Suddenly going from heavy logi and assault numbers to a sway in heavy and light frames. Plus saying it adds diversity is obviously a lie as everyone gravitated to the Cal and Gal scout based on the numbers.
This is something we will have to address pre-respec: balance.
If balancing has not been performed to every dropsuit then when a respec hits most players are going to gravitate towards whatever suits can boast the best stats.
Charlie is balancing scouts and assaults. I believe I read that Delta is slated to balance logistics and sentinels.
Armor and shield tanking modules have been balanced in Alpha and Bravo and I have confidence that CCP Rattati and Logibro would make further adjustments to them if they were over/under-performing.
Light weapon balance is the best it has been... pretty much ever. Sidearms are being reviewed in Charlie.
Perhaps after the balancing passes we will be ready for a respec.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2457
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Posted - 2014.08.06 13:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Double post, derp derp herpity derp.
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2487
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Taurion Bruni wrote:I don't want the FOTM followers to swap into the next op build. then we will have 90% of the community running the same fit again..
Do you really believe that respecs cause FotM behavior? No, imbalance causes that. CCP Rattati and Logibro are doing a pretty thorough job of balancing things right now. Once near balance is achieved the FotM behavior will be less and less noticeable.
Also, FotM seekers bank millions of SP pre-update to dump on what they perceive to be the next best fitting. That will happen if repecs happen or not.
TL;DR - FotM is irrelevant to the respec argument.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2488
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Posted - 2014.08.06 16:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Why can't you save up some SP for your new spec as well then?
I do save up SP pre-patch. I have about half a million saved for Charlie actually.
Story time...
The first few weeks I played Dust 514 I ran starter fits, as new players should. What weapon was fitted to EVERY frontline starter fit until here recently? The assault rifle. What did I spend my SP on, not even aware that CCP would be releasing a Caldari racial rifle? The assault rifle. The Amarr scrambler rifle seemed interesting, but there was no militia version for me to experiment with.
Soraya Xel wrote:But Ripley! That SP will always be there in case you ever want to use the assault rifle again!
I won't. Seriously. I will not ever use the assault rifle again for the rest of my characters life. I find it bland and it does not appeal to me after using the rail rifle and laser rifle. CCP could delete the SP out of the assault rifle; it would not even register as a loss to me. Do we understand each other? I. will. never. use. an. assault. rifle. again. ever.
The question you should be asking me is, "What would you do with all of that SP you spent into assault rifles?"
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2488
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Posted - 2014.08.06 17:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Soraya Xel wrote:Please don't put words in my mouth. My answer would be: You used that SP. It has been used. SP is a one-time use currency. Want more? Go earn more. Not complain about how you spent what you had before.
I used it without CCP providing me an adequate NPE. I used it based on CCP's poor decision to fit assault rifles to every frontline starter fit. I used it without knowing the remaining racial weapons were being released in the next few months.
Would you have preferred that I only spend SP on Dropsuit Upgrades until I was certain CCP added every weapon and a militia version?
We are getting off topic here... CCP's inability to educate new players is worthy of its own thread.
In Charlie and Delta we are going to see most every dropsuit have it's PG/CPU tweaked in some way. Many are having slot layouts changed. Some will be losing equipment slots, some will be gaining. Some dropsuit skill bonuses are being balanced. The sidearm balancing is also slated for Delta.
I'm saying all this to point out that the way players will be using dropsuits is going to be changing. Couple that, with the changes we have seen in Alpha and Bravo and most players are requesting a respec.
danie braz wrote:Because they do respecs one player at a time and even if had the full team it would take far too many man hours.
Actually, it is done with a script. I know some players are not interested in having their SP unallocated so for them I propose a voluntary respec option. If you want a respec then open a ticket with a specific subject line.
danie braz wrote:If anything I would propose paid respecs. Much rather do that than buy those boosters. Even thought now i have 80k aur I need to burn.
Paid respecs would be fine so long as we create a cooldown between respecs. Someone should not be allowed to respec every 60 - 90 days, but 180+ sounds more fair. Hell, even inact an "SP tax": you pay for a respec but suffer a 10% total SP loss.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2489
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Posted - 2014.08.06 17:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:I just got my 4th assault proto.
Gotdayum ... congrats
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2490
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:I know.. They all suck, but amarr is fun to dink around with.. Stay away from minmatar it's terrible. I don't mean lore wise I mean the fitting is yeah it's something..
Noted. What's terrible about it exactly? The assault bonus for them looks appropriate for their weapon list.
I've been rolling Caldari assault since launch day and I have enjoyed it a lot. I think our reload speed bonus is subpar, but it's a shitton better than Gallente assault (which I hear is bugged and/or next to useless with their weapon list).
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2490
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Posted - 2014.08.06 18:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
TYCHUS MAXWELL wrote:Beta players are assholes. Not all, but most seem to be. They do not care that, of those that didn't flat out quit, many of the newer players without stupid amounts of SP get wrecked through months of investments by these sudden changes per patch that completely change your choices. It's never been about living with choices or FOTM, that's just the excuse. It's always been about feeling like since you have been around longer you should be able to punish new players with your handicap.
I wish I had the characters to make this my sig... truer words have never been on this forum than the above.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2492
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Well then tell CCP to remove the CPM tag from your alt if that's the case. Because when you speak on the forums with the CPM tag you are first and foremost a council member.
I think you are being a bit overzealous. Soraya can post his/her opinions with a CPM tag, so long he/she is still being a player advocate when addressing CCP.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2492
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:Oh sure, make it even quicker for Gen Tso's, NF, and all those bastards to switch directly over to Amarr Scout with max scan precision and range. Plus any other jackass who wants to be FOTM.
The people who are interested in FotM fittings have already banked SP prior to the update, I can almost guarantee it. That will happen if we are given a respec or not.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2493
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Posted - 2014.08.06 19:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thumb Green wrote:Excuse me for trying to take the CPM role seriously (foolish me, I know). We can't judge them based on when they are addressing CCP because most of that is shrouded in a NDA so we rarely get to witness what they actually advocate to CCP. So it's best that whenever they speak with the CPM tag that what they say reflects what that tag represents. Just as it would in the real world.
Last post I am going to make on this subject, as we are getting WAY off topic, but CPM is allowed to have opinions on things. They must still represent us; if you notice they are not putting forward ideas and opinions that align with yours then don't vote for them next time.
Also, this is an internet clone murder simulator council of psychopaths, not the Senate. Relax son, gotdayum.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2528
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Posted - 2014.08.07 13:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Topher Mellen wrote:I still want a skill point refund on the light weapon and sidearms skill trees, because they're all sorts of screwed up. If we're getting a pistol rework in delta, I definitely want it in that patch if not in charlie.
I think this is the bare minimum acceptable SP refund. Delta is slated to have some sidearm balancing. Hopefully the entire Weaponry tree will receive a refund.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2528
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Posted - 2014.08.07 13:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Topher Mellen wrote:I disagree with you on that Ripley. I only want a refund for the rifles and pistols because they have reached racial parity and have not as of yet been refunded. I don't think we need a remote explosive or a grenade skill point refund, in the same way we don't need a heavy weapons refund.
Fair points.
And I don't believe we have reached racial parity with light weapons or sidearms. We still lack three racial melee weapons, the other sniper rifles, etc.
He imposes order on the chaos of organic evolution...
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Ripley Riley
Incorruptibles
2534
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Posted - 2014.08.07 15:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
danie braz wrote:They mentioned the sp penalty for Legion. You return a skill you get the SP back over a period of time with a possible penalty.
A CCP dev has said that? Do you have a link?
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