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OP FOTM
Commando Perkone Caldari State
276
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Posted - 2014.08.02 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was posting in someone's thread about Logis and I realized something...
The anti-heavy QQers say that heavies are just supposed to stand in one spot, like a monolith and do nothing. But they're wrong.
Anyone who plays RPG games knows that the bulky HP class is supposed to have enough offense AND defense to "stall" the enemy or outright kill it while shrugging off its blows. The thing about bulky walls is they're supposed to have an achilles heel. A weakness.
And we do. Sentinels are weak to explosive weapons, shotguns, and knives. We're also weak to ranged weapons and being targeted by multiple enemies because of our size and slow movement. Not to mention a weapon that not many people realize when in this discussion - scanning. We're the easiest to scan.
If you are not utilizing any of the above, you have no excuse for being killed by a heavy. Period. I just listed about seven things that will easily put a heavy down quickly - as quick as an HMG blast would kill at close range, in fact. So what's the problem here?
Sentinels are the damage tankers and close range attackers. They support their team by being the best at those two things, while the mediums and lights engage at range and use other tactics like flanking and scanning. They are not the point-defense class and they need to be able to deal high damage at close quarters to be effective.
Logis are the point defense class. They have access to 3 or 4 different kinds of equipment, and every one of them is designed for defense and strategic support. Logis are the ones who shouldn't be able to deal much damage, not heavies. Heavies NEED their damage potential in order to fulfill their role.
This is also why there are now different strengths and weaknesses to Sentinels, because each one plays the slow, heavy damage dealing role in a different way. Minmatar trades HP for speed, Gallente trades pure HMG combat to tank other kinds of damage, Caldari trades stopping power for regen ability, and Amarr trades versatility to get up close and personal.
It's not just "heavy spam." It's learning how to engage each type of Sentinel effectively, like using a combat rifle on a Caldari scout isn't as effective as using a laser or plasma weapon. If you want to go into a Sentinel's territory and slaughter all of the heavies at once, go for explosives. If you want to pick them off one by one, go for a laser weapon.
TL;DR
The only two things Sentinels are good at are taking damage and dealing it out. Our damage potential should not be "nerfed" because the accusation of being a point defense role is false, the LOGI IS THE POINT DEFENSE ROLE THAT DEALS LOW DAMAGE.
Dust servers will be a ghost town on 09/09/14
Destiny kicks ass... Like Halo knocked up Mass Effect and gave birth
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1569
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Posted - 2014.08.02 20:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:The thing about bulky walls is they're supposed to have an achilles heel. A weakness.
And we do. Sentinels are weak to explosive weapons, shotguns...Not to mention a weapon that not many people realize when in this discussion - scanning.
First of all this is totally incorrect. Sentinals have explosive weapon resistances in addition to their racial resistances. The Caldari and Minmatar sentinals even have resistances to hybrid plasma weapons which include shotguns. It should also be noted that scanning is not a weapon. It is a tool, a force multiplier if you will, that allows you to employ your weapons more effectively.
OP FOTM wrote:Sentinels are the damage tankers and close range attackers. They support their team by being the best at those two things, while the mediums and lights engage at range and use other tactics like flanking and scanning. They are not the point-defense class and they need to be able to deal high damage at close quarters to be effective.
Second, yes sentinals are point defense soldiers. They are intended to do high damage at close range (which you have pointed out), but their extremely low mobility restricts their role as an attacker. It seems like you are miss understanding peoples issues with heavies. The problem isn't that they do large amounts of damage at close range, that is fine and the class working as intended. No, the issue is that they can apply that damage at pretty long ranges. They are, in a word, too effective at med. range damage application. The people calling for changes to heavies want them to function as killers, but killers that are restricted in their ability to deal damage over range.
OP FOTM wrote:Logis are the point defense class. They have access to 3 or 4 different kinds of equipment, and every one of them is designed for defense and strategic support. Logis are the ones who shouldn't be able to deal much damage, not heavies. Heavies NEED their damage potential in order to fulfill their role.
Logis can't deal a ton of damage due to their lack of weapon bonuses and the lack of a side arm in almost all cases (the Amarr Logi being the exception). This lack of damage dealing potential does not make them a point defense class though. Far from it they are not the best killers of out there. No, Logis are a support class. They provide a mobile (think compared to supply depots) platform for deploying equipment which enhances the effectiveness of their team mates. Calling them point defense is just ignorant.
OP FOTM wrote:This is also why there are now different strengths and weaknesses to Sentinels, because each one plays the slow, heavy damage dealing role in a different way. Minmatar trades HP for speed, Gallente trades pure HMG combat to tank other kinds of damage, Caldari trades stopping power for regen ability, and Amarr trades versatility to get up close and personal.
Wow! You've really never have read the stat. bonuses for all the Sentinal suits have you? All the sentinal class suits get bonuses to explosive damage resists, as well as two other resists. The Gallente sentinal does not make any concessions in this area. In fact it adds passive armor repping to the mix (1 hp/s) meaning it is intended to be a passive armor rep tanked heavy. The Amarr benefits more from brick tanking (especially once the charlie slot changes go through). You are correct about the Cal and Min sentinals but they still retain their resist bonuses.
It's not just "heavy spam." It's learning how to engage each type of Sentinel effectively, like using a combat rifle on a Caldari scout isn't as effective as using a laser or plasma weapon. If you want to go into a Sentinel's territory and slaughter all of the heavies at once, go for explosives. If you want to pick them off one by one, go for a laser weapon.
OP FOTM wrote:The only two things Sentinels are good at are taking damage and dealing it out. Our damage potential should not be "nerfed" because the accusation of being a point defense role is false, the LOGI IS THE POINT DEFENSE ROLE THAT DEALS LOW DAMAGE.[/b]
Now that you've come full circle a second time I will reiterate that Logis are not the class intended for point defense work. They damage application is too poor. Pair this with their low survivability and you have a horrible suit for defending anything. Logis are the support class. They move with squads acting as a force multiplier. Sentinals have a huge amount of HP and can deal a steady stream of damage but have very poor mobility. They are great at staying in an area and locking that space down. They can play agressively, but they need support to do this. They cannot attack well solo like scouts or (hopefully in Charlie) assaults because of their poor mobility and awful scan profile/precision.
TL;DR
The OP is wrong and does not understand the suits, their bonuses, or how to use them successfully. He should biomass his character give up Dust and go back to playing My Little Pony: Adventures in Pony Ville as it is probably more his speed.
Fun > Realism
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
220
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Posted - 2014.08.02 22:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:I was posting in someone's thread about Logis and I realized something...
The anti-heavy QQers say that heavies are just supposed to stand in one spot, like a monolith and do nothing. But they're wrong.
Anyone who plays RPG games knows that the bulky HP class is supposed to have enough offense AND defense to "stall" the enemy or outright kill it while shrugging off its blows. The thing about bulky walls is they're supposed to have an achilles heel. A weakness.
And we do. Sentinels are weak to explosive weapons, shotguns, and knives. We're also weak to ranged weapons and being targeted by multiple enemies because of our size and slow movement. Not to mention a weapon that not many people realize when in this discussion - scanning. We're the easiest to scan.
If you are not utilizing any of the above, you have no excuse for being killed by a heavy. Period. I just listed about seven things that will easily put a heavy down quickly - as quick as an HMG blast would kill at close range, in fact. So what's the problem here?
Sentinels are the damage tankers and close range attackers. They support their team by being the best at those two things, while the mediums and lights engage at range and use other tactics like flanking and scanning. They are not the point-defense class and they need to be able to deal high damage at close quarters to be effective.
Logis are the point defense class. They have access to 3 or 4 different kinds of equipment, and every one of them is designed for defense and strategic support. Logis are the ones who shouldn't be able to deal much damage, not heavies. Heavies NEED their damage potential in order to fulfill their role.
This is also why there are now different strengths and weaknesses to Sentinels, because each one plays the slow, heavy damage dealing role in a different way. Minmatar trades HP for speed, Gallente trades pure HMG combat to tank other kinds of damage, Caldari trades stopping power for regen ability, and Amarr trades versatility to get up close and personal.
It's not just "heavy spam." It's learning how to engage each type of Sentinel effectively, like using a combat rifle on a Caldari scout isn't as effective as using a laser or plasma weapon. If you want to go into a Sentinel's territory and slaughter all of the heavies at once, go for explosives. If you want to pick them off one by one, go for a laser weapon.
TL;DR
The only two things Sentinels are good at are taking damage and dealing it out. Our damage potential should not be "nerfed" because the accusation of being a point defense role is false, the LOGI IS THE POINT DEFENSE ROLE THAT DEALS LOW DAMAGE. i somewhat agree that sentinels are not OP but its the player meta and spesific loadouts which can give a supriseing edge, sents are weak to scouts (knive shottie RE) also they are quite easy to take out from ranges or behind cover and can do well in point defense but they are best off with logi support as logi are NOT point defense were SUPPORT so we REZ REP RESUPPLY REINFORCE and RALLY logi alone are sub par defence and best off sticking with a group.. sentinels are mediocre and run out of ammo quickly so you just need a logi with a sentinel for WIN..
PS. Scouts are Point defense.. those cloaky bastards just cloak up, wait, kill with knife/shotgun at close or RE at range then cloak up again and repeat.
PPS. sentinels with adv+ logi support are good for both offense and defense.. pushing the point or defending it.. or pushing against or weathering the tide of players
Logibro in training.
Weapon Damage Profiles Quick List
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Alena Ventrallis
S0VER31GN
1508
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Posted - 2014.08.03 01:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sentinels should have high damage, but they should be unable to apply that damage at anything exceeding 25m.
Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
170
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Posted - 2014.08.03 01:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mobius Kaethis cannot attack well solo like scouts or (hopefully in Charlie) assaults because of their poor mobility and awful scan profile/precision.
TL;DR
The OP is wrong and does not understand the suits, their bonuses, or how to use them successfully. He should biomass his character give up Dust and go back to playing [url=http://www.hubnetwork.com/shows/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic/games/adventures-in-ponyville wrote:http://www.hubnetwork.com/shows/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic/games/adventures-in-ponyville[/url] as it is probably more his speed. Not sure if I should be offended or laugh. Or geth.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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ladwar
HEARTS OF PHOENIX
2028
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Posted - 2014.08.03 01:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sentinels should have high damage, but they should be unable to apply that damage at anything exceeding 25m. that's what most ppl think thats why there is so much hate 4 heavies w/ rail rifles Btw OP FOTM is totally wrong and second is right
Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet.
I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth
doing reviews in free time, want 1?
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JRleo jr
Xer Cloud Consortium
170
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Posted - 2014.08.03 01:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
ladwar wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sentinels should have high damage, but they should be unable to apply that damage at anything exceeding 25m. that's what most ppl think thats why there is so much hate 4 armor heavies w/ rail rifles Btw OP FOTM is totally wrong and second is right Cal and min suits are crap vs gal and amarr, gallente can get 900+armor at std...i think.
Max level brony.
Pink fluffy unicorns
http://youtu.be/C34BzC7rnos
Best song evar.
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ladwar
HEARTS OF PHOENIX
2028
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Posted - 2014.08.03 03:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
JRleo jr wrote:ladwar wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Sentinels should have high damage, but they should be unable to apply that damage at anything exceeding 25m. that's what most ppl think thats why there is so much hate 4 armor heavies w/ rail rifles Btw OP FOTM is totally wrong and second is right Cal and min suits are crap vs gal and amarr, gallente can get 900+armor at std...i think. They can with maxed skill
Level 2 Forum Warrior, bitter vet.
I shall smite Thy Trolls with numbers and truth
doing reviews in free time, want 1?
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OP FOTM
Commando Perkone Caldari State
283
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Posted - 2014.08.05 16:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
go back and cry to your Moldy Labia friends
the explosive resistance isn't enough to make much of a difference. it's still something that all sentinels except Caldari are universally weak to, and even then their slow movement speed makes the AREA OF EFFECT splash radius more effective especially against "heavy spam"
Also the resistance is to SPLASH DAMAGE not explosive damage so if you hit a heavy in the face with a direct hit mass driver it's going to deal the full +20% damage to his armor. At proto level the resistance is only 25% so that's only 5% of an explosion that we are soaking up. Let's see what else only has a 5% resistance oh yeah, SHIELDS VS PROJECTILES. WHAT A ******* WONDERFUL RESISTANCE THAT IS. All you need to kill a proto heavy is the advanced REs and honestly you can still do it with basic as long as you spray them to finish them off or take down their shields
Sentinels are still NOT PURE POINT DEFENSE. They can and very often do perform POINT OFFENSE, EVEN IF YOU NERF THEIR RANGE. ESPECIALLY IN CITY MAPS.
You guys are morons. It's like saying because a blaster tank has bad range and bad mobility, it's a point defense class. Yeah, it CAN do point defense, but just like a heavy it can AND SHOULD also perform offensively.
You people are missing the point: this thread was made to disprove the idea that HMG damage "should be nerfed." It shouldn't because not only would a RANGE NERF BE MORE THAN ENOUGH, we also need that damage to perform our OFFENSIVE ROLE.
Dust servers will be a ghost town on 09/09/14
Destiny kicks ass... Like Halo knocked up Mass Effect and gave birth
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xSivartx
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
100
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Posted - 2014.08.05 17:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'd rather lose the firing speed buff we got long ago in order to keep range and damage if another nerf is deemed needed. |
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Alena Ventrallis
S0VER31GN
1524
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Posted - 2014.08.05 17:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Honestly, just increase HMG dispersion. the thing should hurt a ton when your up close, and having 40m range is fine if only every few rounds impact the target. But as of now, too many rounds hit a target at too far of a range.
Rattati has spoken. CalScout hitbox is fine. You're gun game is broken.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2650
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Posted - 2014.08.05 18:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Such rage...anyways.
So basically we need to look at Attack and Defense as basically the same thing.
Defense, or eHP, effectively modifies the amount of time you have under damage before you die, this is obvious.
Attack, or DPS, modifies the amount of time it takes to kill the enemy, this is also obvious.
The thing is that it goes both ways, As your eHP increases, your time to survive increases, and as the enemy's DPS increases, your time to survive decreases. They key point in this is that once you kill the enemy, the DPS stops (duh). That being said, the faster your kill the enemy, the less time you need to survive his DPS, and thus increasing your DPS has a very similar effect to increasing your eHP (given a 1 vs 1 battle).
To put it more simply, Player A has 100 HP and deals 150 DPS, while player B has 150 HP and deals 100 DPS. A clearly is the "Attacking" class, and B is the "Defending" class. Yet if they start shooting at one another (all other things equal), they'll both die at the same time.
That being said, you can't define a "Defending" class by high HP and low DPS, because if that's the case, the "Attacking" class, would make a similarly good defensive class.
Therefor the "Defender" must have superior ratio of Attack and Defense to make it superior to the "Attacker" in the defensive role. However other limiting factors have to be applied to that Defender so that they subsequently can't fulfill the "Attacker" role as well. So far these limiting factors have traditionally been reduced speed and range, as well as a larger signature profile and hitbox.
I'm not advising any specific change or to what degree, but I do urge people to take a closer look at the relationship between attack and defense, and how that applies to the various roles in the game. |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
4883
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Posted - 2014.08.06 00:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote: Anyone who plays RPG games knows that the bulky HP class is supposed to have enough offense AND defense to "stall" the enemy or outright kill it while shrugging off its blows. The thing about bulky walls is they're supposed to have an achilles heel. A weakness.
And we do. Sentinels are weak to explosive weapons, shotguns, and knives. We're also weak to ranged weapons and being targeted by multiple enemies because of our size and slow movement. Not to mention a weapon that not many people realize when in this discussion - scanning. We're the easiest to scan.
Ok I like a majority of the post but this is specific part is misleading. Everybody is susceptible to shotguns, explosives, and knives. It's not a sentinel specific weakness. As an semi-expert in explosives, mass drivers and remote explosives, heavies are actually the least susceptible to explosives, seeing as how they have specific resistances to splash.
The common weakness of sentinels is their ignorance and lack of awareness. Most fail to recognize that a majority of what they lack in passive scans can be made up for in actual awareness and checking their backside when in unfriendly areas. I once just followed a heavy and he never turned around until he was hit from his backside. That is the common weakness.
But it is not the suit weakness. I also want people to recognize that no suit is specifically weak to ranged weapons. Your weakness of range is purely determined by your choice of weapon. Heavies can use lasers, sniper rifles (in fact heavy snipers were quite common in beta), no suit is specifically hindered by range. It's just that people are associating heavies with the HMG. But no matter the weapon, the heavy has their resistance bonus. So a sentinel with a rail rifle is not countered by range, even worse forge snipers. People must stop associating the word heavies with HMG. While HMG is a fountain of tears and in general very hard to counter when your weapon shares range profiles, the fact remains that heavies are unlimited in range abilities.
I agree that the heavy should be inflicting high damage and taking high damage, because by reason they should be too slow. But in this game I find that sentinels aren't really all that slow. That's my opinion but really the slowness is only an inhibiting factor in the open plains. Put a heavy in a city and it's hard to counter when a wise person is wearing it.
The solution that I now favor, is to make the sentinel a weapon conscious suit. In charlie sentinels will be losing CPU/PG but receiving heavy weapon fitting reduction. So now light weapons on sentinel are still possible, but it puts the fit at risk and sacrifice, thus your suit may become unreliable when paired with it. In charlie HMGs are receiving a heat increase, thus the HMG will become more unreliable when used improperly. Hopes are that they are substantial enough so that you must actually be conscious ( I mean verrry...) in how they use the weapon. Forge gun isn't all that unreliable but it's AV so irrelevant to most AI situations. I also want to see HMG have feedback damage.
TLDR: Your weaknesses come from the perspective of an ignorant HMG user. Please use scenarios that are more inclusive.
Just as long as the dice keep rollin, the hoes keep hoein, and the money keeps flowin!
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Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1613
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Posted - 2014.08.06 00:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP FOTM wrote:go back and cry to your Moldy Labia friends the explosive resistance isn't enough to make much of a difference. it's still something that all sentinels except Caldari are universally weak to, and even then their slow movement speed makes the AREA OF EFFECT splash radius more effective especially against "heavy spam" Also the resistance is to SPLASH DAMAGE not explosive damage so if you hit a heavy in the face with a direct hit mass driver it's going to deal the full +20% damage to his armor. At proto level the resistance is only 25% so that's only 5% of an explosion that we are soaking up. Let's see what else only has a 5% resistance oh yeah, SHIELDS VS PROJECTILES. WHAT A ******* WONDERFUL RESISTANCE THAT IS. All you need to kill a proto heavy is the advanced REs and honestly you can still do it with basic as long as you spray them to finish them off or take down their shields Sentinels are still NOT PURE POINT DEFENSE. They can and very often do perform POINT OFFENSE, EVEN IF YOU NERF THEIR RANGE. ESPECIALLY IN CITY MAPS.You guys are morons. It's like saying because a blaster tank has bad range and bad mobility, it's a point defense class. Yeah, it CAN do point defense, but just like a heavy it can AND SHOULD also perform offensively. You people are missing the point: this thread was made to disprove the idea that HMG damage "should be nerfed." It shouldn't because not only would a RANGE NERF BE MORE THAN ENOUGH, we also need that damage to perform our OFFENSIVE ROLE.
I really wanted to ignore you to be honest because you are obviously a sniveling little whiny **** but your pure stupidity has spurred me into action. If we are missing the point it is because you are doing a poor job of presenting it. As the OP the impetus to set the discussion topic is on you, not us. If you can't do that with enough clarity then don't expect anything other than what you get.
I would also like to point out that Sentinals still get 5% resistance to area of effect weapons (almost all of which are explosive) which is more than the rest of the classe get, making them not more susceptible to death by RE but less. Furthermore your argument that direct hits from massdivers negate their bonus is moronic since this rarely happens.
Who cares if your suit only gets 5% shield resistance against projectiles (this is actually not possible based on the bonuses by the way they go up by 2% or 3% per level and there are no multiples of 2 or 3 that equal 5). Blatant innacuracies asside you once again get far more of a bonus than any other suit has (5% reduction to shield damage from projectiles would put the CR and ACR at -10% damage which is nothing to turn your nose up at) and beyond that you still probably have 1000hp of armor left after your shields go down.
Even though you've bolded and underlined your foolish statement about heavies not being a point defense class you are still wrong. Not only did my first post on this thread soundly disprove you, using logic by the way, but you have totally failed to present any new evidence to counter my arguments. Ergo I still win stupid.
As far as your argument about heavies not being nerfed I really don't even care. All that matters to me at this point is that you get the rhetorical beat down you deserve.
Fun > Realism
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
3624
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Posted - 2014.08.06 03:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Snap!
Winner: Mobius
Shoot scout with yes...
- Ripley Riley
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