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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1106
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Posted - 2014.07.28 19:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ran into on in a match, and HOLY **** MAN. Those things are utterly insane. Spent most of the time in the redline (as that's the ONLY place you have a chance of shooting one when you are a lone tanker), ended up losing the tank to it eventually (actually another tank finally came up, he just got the killing blow).
Called in an ADS to see what this thing was all about, and was AMAZED at how the gunner instantly (all missiles left that launcher in less a second) destroyed my ADS. OP much?
Why doesn't EVERYONE do this!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1106
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
The guy mailed me back, as I asked him about it. Turns out he was not skill stacking. Apparently the gunner wasn't skilled into ADS. But still, the damage output was rather insane. My 5300 shielded tank melted to the two guns. Seems gunners can be quite deadly none the less.
And it seems to me they need to fix that FF damage so that you can't blow yourself out of the dropship.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1109
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Posted - 2014.07.30 17:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Interesting thoughts fellas. The discussion went way beyond what I expected. But I feel there is a bit of groundwork that needs to be laid out and questions to be answered.
The problem - ADS stacking
What is ADS stacking? Well see, there is this skill:
Caldari Assault dropship /Gallente Assault Dropship - 10% per level to either Missile or Rail/Blaster rate of fire per level as well as a 5% increase to maximum ammo capacity.
This skill stacks with other pilots in the dropship. So at max level 5, gunner skills stack with pilot skill, making for incredibly fast rates of fire above and beyond what is normal.
The skill tree
The dropship is the only vehicle type that gains bonuses in this way. If you would look at the skill tree, skilling into HAV's or LAV's only requires one point into HAV or LAV's;
As one point is sufficient to unlock both types of vehicles
There is no bonus attached.
So points wasted going any further than level one as there are no conceivable bonus to having multiple levels. On the other hand, the ADS has 2 skills that provide additional bonuses per level.
Assault dropships - 2% per level to small turret damage.
Caldari / Assault dropships - 10% to ROF and 5% ammo cap per level.
Unlike a HAV or LAV, these 2 additional skills work with small turrets for a gunner. Otherwise, the only bonuses you could gain are Ammo reload speed, Ammo capacity, and proficiency (increases turret rotation speed), if someone decides to be a proficient gunner.
Pros and Cons
I have seen a lot of people for keeping this mechanic in the game, and many against. It's quite clear to me why some would want to keep it and some would like to see it go.
Those FOR - It makes the idea of someone dedicating themselves to the purpose of gunning, meaningful. Meaning you get clear and direct results from your SP investment, separating yourself from the "average" gunner. And I TOTALLY agree with this sentiment.
Those AGAINST - When used with the ADS, it provides an OVERWHELMING advantage to the pilot and gunners, above and beyond what should be allowed. This makes them do things like, insta pop tanks or simply annihilate infantry on the ground with a flurry of missile fire. And agree that it is a broken mechanic.
BUT, does anybody stop to consider the other types, HAV and LAV, that could take advantage of this, without it becoming overwhelming or OP. In an HAV or LAV, the only skills that could stack are reload speed, ammo cap, and proficiency.
So by removing this mechanic, the bonuses for skilling into the idea of being a gunner aren't very meaningful. More so in the case of Tanks and LAV's.
While I do agree this is a broken mechanic, it's only broken because TWO skills, that provide VERY large bonuses to small turrets in a SINGLE vehicle type. So it's not so much the mechanic itself that is the culprit, but the lack of foresight when creating skills for the ADS.
Idea proposal
One of the prominent ideas with all of these recent tank changes, was to shift the focus of the large turrets (large blasters in particular) from being AI focused to AV focused. Than the thought process was that gunners were to fill that void. That is, gunners were supposed to fill in for the lack of an AI role. Want to kill infantry, then fit small guns to your tank.
Something that wasn't foreseen, is how utterly useless tanks become when they can no longer terrorize infantry alone. Not to forget the changes to AV effectiveness, either directly or indirectly, that have made tanks easy to drive away or outright kill. So basically, tanks have a very limited impact on the field as a result.
As a user of small turrets on my own tanks, I can say with a good gunner this does hold very true. A single gunner can consistently rack up 20 kills a match without a problem. And while with a gunner you can be very effective, it's also very easy to counter with AV. Most of my time isn't spent simply chugging away at the infantry, but running from AV.
Throw in a couple of forge gunners and my 2 to 3 man killing machine gets completely denied. TOTALLY fair in my book.
But the issue with gunners, their power potential shouldn't be totally dependent on me. Meaning currently, the best way to increase their effectiveness is to equip bigger and more expensive (cost and CPU/PG) turrets. And if a change to skill stacking came, one that bases skills off of the driver and not the operator, EVERYTHING is on me to provide.
So what I want to see:
Small turrets are affected by OPERATOR skill and not the owners skill, ONLY. Meaning someone skilled into ADS can still get a 50% ROF bonus for putting the points into it.
Redesign the skill trees for small turrets, separating skills so that there skills of clear use to the owner of the vehicle for fitting purposes, and those that would wish to gun for the owner. Make gunning a thing!
RIght now, it is very worth it to skill for being an ADS gunner, but not so much for those gunning for an LAV or HAV. Removing skill stacking makes that even worse, but fixes problems with the ADS stacking. Main idea being, just because I slap guns on my tank, doesn't mean some blueberry off the street can waltz in and do just as good as somebody skilled into them.
Maybe even require skills to even OPERATE the damn thing eh?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1109
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Posted - 2014.07.30 18:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:843-Vika wrote:What is utterly stupid about this entire thread is that it is based of a person QQing about how a an ADS killed him.
QQing about it will not change anything, try getting good.
Exactly. The issue has nothing to do with how other spent there skill points, it is all about the skill of the pilots involved, OP got rolled. We had a good laugh about this when I was squaded with the offending pilot and gunners the next day, pilot loved the fact a post was made.
Mister Buttscratch, if you knew me, or read any number of my postings, you would know I do little QQing. I brought up the issue of skill stacking, which by the way you weren't doing from what you told me, and nothing more.
Yes, I get it. You killed my poorly fit ADS (just realized yesterday it had double damage mods on for some reason lol), but I did try to explain to you that it was purely experimental. See that's what I do, I play with things in an attempt to gain a deeper understanding of why they work or don't work. I may lose only a few or I may lose MANY.
But it matters not to me, because I don't see the FOTM as being THE BEST. Generally it's simply the fits people have the easiest times with.
But in any case you won, yes GG and all. You and your gunner bested me, well done sirs. I hold no hard feeling for it and in all honesty, care very little by losing assets, especially ones I'm only halfway decent at.
So can you just drop it and provide some relevant and constructive feedback?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1109
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Posted - 2014.07.30 18:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Buttscratch wrote:The fact you think his ship was "skilled stacked" is my issue, it wasn't yours was poor. I didn't kill your dropship, my sphincter pals did.
Feedback, don't use experimental ships against skilled pilots with crews/
Lol, are you daft man.
I care little, I really don't see what your issue is here? Why are you TELLING me what I should or should not do. I'm not doing that right now, and there is little need for your QQ right now. I have told you MULTIPLE times that I understand it wasn't skill stacked. I understand that.
What is it you want?? Yes I believe you, but why do you feel you need to continually put that out there? Would it make you feel better knowing that my thread was invalid because the instance I brought up wasn't what I had thought it was?
Is that what you want, for this thread and discussion to fall off the face of the forums because I was wrong in my assumption, nevermind the fact that skill stacking has been brought up multiple times.
Look guy, just because I brought it up based on a misinterpretation of an encounter I had, doesn't make it any less of an issue of concern for many. And good things came from it, new ideas and thoughts, which I shared and you CLEARLY could not read. So I ask again, why are you being such a negatude? Do you want me to bow and praise you for being that awesome??
Ok GG again, well done you 2. I'm a HORRIBLE ADS pilot and had no right to even be in the sky, much less accuse you of skill stacking. Man I'm terrible. Sorry guy, you bested me. What more do you want, or does it make you feel better to attack people?
Now go read what I said in it's entirety and learn something.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1110
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Posted - 2014.07.30 23:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
White-Lion wrote:Your first part of your argument about HAV should not be taken in to account, you are comparing apples and oranges. Skill-stacking doesn't work for tanks because 1: they don't have a skill they can stack (which I think they should) and 2: skill-stack only works for the same turret on the vehicle as the driver/pilot is using. For HAVs I would suggest that the tank skill be separate skills like the ads and their bonus greatly affect small turrets of their respected race and only slightly affect the large turret, that would make TW tank viable and on equal with the ads. LAVs could be a different arguement.
Are you refering to my post by chance? If so, I was making a point that removing skill stacking, has a far greater impact against tanks and LAV's, as neither have incredibly useful skill that could stack, nothing that compares to the ADS skills at least.
So I'm making the argument that skill stacking maybe isn't so bad, but a few bad apple skills make it seem that way. I was pointing out the root of the problem, which just so happens to NOT be skill stacking but the skills that do stack for huge bonuses.
White-Lion wrote:Why I think skill-stacking should stay
In all honesty, yes it isn't skill stacking that should go. But those bonuses from skills do allow for some extreme DPS. More so then I think SHOULD be allowed.
Like I said though, I don't think there should be such a thing as skill stacking still. I think it would be better off based on a single player (Gunner or Pilot).
For example if it was based on the skills of the ADS pilot, then the gunners still receive a 50% ROF boost from the pilot for having the skill maxed.
On the other hand if it was based on the gunner skill, then it's up to the gunner to skill into the ADS tree to obtain the ROF bonus.
But I still maintain stacking between the 2 is a bit much.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1110
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Posted - 2014.07.31 14:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Isn't skill stacking in vehicle turrets "Working as intended"? (I remember asking about it some time ago, and getting a reply that said that the skills where supposed to stack)...or is it just the ADS skills that shouldn't stack to the gunners (while the turret skills stack for the gunners/pilot)?
I'm sure it's "working as intended", but I don't think having a 100% ROF is balanced or fair. I'm cool with a gunner getting the 50% from max skill when gunning in an ADS, but why is it that it HAS to stack to be competitive.
Isn't 50% kind of enough?
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1113
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Posted - 2014.07.31 16:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zindorak wrote:843-Vika wrote:Zindorak wrote:I dont understand what is skillstacking and how to do it. Can someone pls explain 3 people in 1 ads with lvl 5 ads skills = 50% x 3 RoF bonus oh nice
Actually, I think the max is 100%. Stacks with pilot and gunner, not pilot, gunner gunner.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1113
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Posted - 2014.07.31 17:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Its fine
It requires 2 pilots with level5 skills into ADS/DS aswell as small missile skills and the pilot needs to have all other skills to be able to fit a decent tank on it so it doesnt get 2 shot by a FG
It requires 2 pilots to use at all time, that is teamwork which infantry always bang on about yet it can take 1 AV to knock it out the sky which is no teamwork
But once again bad players want something related to vehicles nerfed, anything different is not allowed, anything which gives a vehicle an advanatage is OP and needs to be removed
OP already wants railguns removed, wants vehicles removed out of more gamemodes, wants certain vehicles not to comeback, wants modules removed, pretty much wants vehicles removed since they are already dead
Just play cod ppl, no vehicles for you to deal with
I know right, sucks when things get balanced out.
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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