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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
Aighun wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
In that case, let me shoot someone in the leg and force them to wait to get repairs for it. otherwise they are left laying on the ground.
small arms shouldn't be able to do much of anything to a vehicle. If they were able to disable vehicles in any way, EWAR (actual EWAR, not scanning) would be wholly useless, and it would make it that much easier to smash vehicles.
I do think it might be worthwhile to explore a more granular damage model for infantry. I actually like the idea of being able to shoot someone in the leg to limit their mobility. I completely agree with your specifics, though, that turning all the small arms into AV weapons is not the best approach to Infantry vs. vehicle combat. Though I think doing something like the OP suggested coud add some flavor to the mix, I am not trying to argue that any small arms fire in and of itself should disable every vehicle. If it were up to me (and if I were to take a moment to do some armchair game design) I would make small arms fire usually able to damage tanks in a couple of very specific situations. And only occasionally able to damage tanks outside of those situations. First I would definitely have enter vehicle, exit vehicle animations. And a tank, for example, would be vulnerable to small arms fire when any crew were entering or exiting the tank. Something like, a tank would have to lower shields, and you could fire into the hatch when it was open for crew to enter and exit. Players could damage or kill tank crew or do some damage to systems. Second, if a tank were already damaged to such an extent that shields were down, armor was severely damaged or destroyed, and vulnerable systems were exposed, small arms fire could further damage those systems. Anyway, I like the OP's idea, that different vehicles should have different vulnerabilities to small arms fire. I don't agree to the point of making all weapons capable of destroying all vehicles. But it would make for more layered, nuanced, and interesting gameplay. For instance, maybe a tank could have a targeting camera that you could shoot and disable as shields went through a power cycle. The only damage this would do is disable the tank driver's ability to zoom in with the main gun for something like 15 seconds. Anyway, even if all of this makes for a better Legion, it is much more of a priority to get the actual anti vehicle weaponry right. It is better to have anti vehicle weapons that actually work that to try to figure out a way to make every other weapon in the game an anti vehicle weapon. But it might be worthwhile to do both, if possible. The best way to do this is to implement a more sophisticated damage model for vehicles.
lolwut? okay
1: There's a game made to do that kind of thing well. it's called Arma. Neither Dust nor Legion should play like that. You realize how slow paced the game would become if that was a thing?
2: So let me get this straight: You don't want small arms to damage every vehicle, yet a large ground vehicle (going by EVE logic, currently that would make it the 3rd most tankiest hull type, assuming that XL ground vehicles comes, in which if they don't, 2nd) you want to become even more vulnerable than it currently is, and to small arms fire? If that's the case, then what don't you want to be able to be?
3: Entry and exit aside, a HAV or anything ingame would have to lower its shields to let it in. That's not how shields work. Also, the "shooting into the HAV through the entrance" won't work unless the shields are down, in which that would be punishing only armor based vehicles (if shield based vehicles were in armor they are probably dead anyways). Actually, going off of your next idea, and others (which are quite similar in nature, saying that the shields has to be down) really only punishes armor based vehicles.
4: All of these ideas pretty much says "kill the pilot with a reletively easy shot, making the pilot lose a bunch of ISK" or "there's a bunch of new spots on a vehicle in which does much more than normal damage, and also said spots can be shot at by small arms". Neither of those are good for the pilot, only for the infantry. These ideas takes away from AV and EWAR capabilities, and generally making gameplay for pilots more annoying. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:I wouldn't mind having differing armour values depending on where I am hit.
E,g-
Frontal Armour- 10% Damage Resistance Side Armour- 0% modifications to -10% Damage Resistance Rear Armour- On top of the vulnerable spot a standard -25 Damage Resistance Treads and Hull- -25% Damage Resistance
So hunting tanks requires AV to think on their toes and focus on HAV weak spots for critical damage, while HAV have to conside how the enter and exit and engagement and can tactically use their frontal armour as a shield of sorts.
That would mean that basically the entire hull other than the front (which usually you don't attack a HAV from the front) does tons of damage, much more than what we have now, which is shoot the reactor for 10% more damage (which just that is a lot of damage). |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
16012
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:Syeven Reed wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:Syeven Reed wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Ideas and thoughts This is a good concept, although I could see it being to hard to manage. I'd imagine something like this would be balanced with giving the vehicle a counter such as an 'escape'. But as we know in Dust(beta) having vehicles with an easy escape only makes things more hit and run with my over-the-top killing machine. It made things hard to counter. However I like the idea that someone posted in response to your OP: for the ability to kill the driver and take the vehicle for your own (more loot! ). While this would have to be very hard to do so, a small opening for a grenade in the top (think halo 1) or the ability to shoot a flap of metal off, reviling a squishy driver to shoot at, I think this would be a good mechanic. That's even a worse idea. It's as bad as being one shotted by any weapon in the game whilst being a heavy. Well... Make it a skill shot. The vehicle would have to be heavily damaged and can only be done when the vehicle shields are down, you have shot away an opening on top and manage to get a grenade through the small gap. (or maybe grenades won't go through but bullets do?) Plus If your tanks still around by then maybe you should die? An extra mechanic intended to make another option along side of, tank go's boom. 1: That punishes armor based vehicles 2: It's very easy to get on top of a vehicle 3: We're most likely sealed in pods (same for DS pilots), and therefore makes even less sense, since that's additional armor 4: Why in the hell would a engineer make a hole that goes straight towards the pilot? Still no.
1. it should work on shielded vehicles the same way.
2. Have you tried to vehicle rodeo lately?
3. NOPE; we control vehicles in the very similar same manner we control our guns. Standard co-processing interface. Smallest vehicle we could control that has such things are the MCC.
4. Because engineering has not come up with a feasible solution to all the problems. Worlds most expensive jet can still be taken out with a single steel rod shoved down the intake. Oddly enough most tank engines are the same way since they use jet engines now a days. Of course we're not talking an entirely catastrophic explosion but loss of power is lethal for either type of vehicle. Regular rotary engines are also subject to self destruction if you rammed a bullet into the engine that screwed one piston.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well one thing is I am not expecting a single individual taking out the vehicles easily on their lonesome emptying the entire contents of their weapons into the weak spots and if they do it for the wrong reasons they should have the serious risk of being out of ammo against threats they could have killed instead.
This is more for what should happen if a vehicle pilot decides he wants to put his vehicle into someplace extremely risky.
Either way things that change armor models on the vehicle needs clear model indicators that such are installed.
A place in which would be extremely risky is a compound. And the designs of compounds so far that CCP has given us so far on their own makes it extremely risky to go in, especially if smart AV is on the other side. going into the middle of a compound, then AV starts striking you, you'll probably die before you get out of the compound.
This would just make it worse, as now infantry wouldn't even need to call someone to tackle the HAV; they would need to only shoot at it. |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
16012
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Posted - 2014.07.25 20:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well one thing is I am not expecting a single individual taking out the vehicles easily on their lonesome emptying the entire contents of their weapons into the weak spots and if they do it for the wrong reasons they should have the serious risk of being out of ammo against threats they could have killed instead.
This is more for what should happen if a vehicle pilot decides he wants to put his vehicle into someplace extremely risky.
Either way things that change armor models on the vehicle needs clear model indicators that such are installed. A place in which would be extremely risky is a compound. And the designs of compounds so far that CCP has given us so far on their own makes it extremely risky to go in, especially if smart AV is on the other side. going into the middle of a compound, then AV starts striking you, you'll probably die before you get out of the compound. This would just make it worse, as now infantry wouldn't even need to call someone to tackle the HAV; they would need to only shoot at it.
well the weak spots are current in dust so just to experiment you could try attempt shooting at them now to see how easy it is to hit a mobile vehicles weakspot.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
334
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Posted - 2014.07.25 21:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
Roger, you are amazing. You did not came with single idea in this topic, and all you do is keep criticize other's, like this is a hard part.
Gallente Speed Scout.
EVE side of me: Nosum Hseebnrido
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Roger, you are amazing. You did not came with single idea in this topic, and all you do is keep criticize other's, like this is a hard part .
I did not need to, this idea in itself, being able to disable or harm vehicles with sidearms is bad. I don't support it at all, and I'm saying why. Why would I come up with a idea for something that I don't support? |
Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
16012
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Roger, you are amazing. You did not came with single idea in this topic, and all you do is keep criticize other's, like this is a hard part .
TBH it would be hard to come up with ideas against this. Its a do or don't thing with comprimises in the middle.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 22:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well one thing is I am not expecting a single individual taking out the vehicles easily on their lonesome emptying the entire contents of their weapons into the weak spots and if they do it for the wrong reasons they should have the serious risk of being out of ammo against threats they could have killed instead.
This is more for what should happen if a vehicle pilot decides he wants to put his vehicle into someplace extremely risky.
Either way things that change armor models on the vehicle needs clear model indicators that such are installed. A place in which would be extremely risky is a compound. And the designs of compounds so far that CCP has given us so far on their own makes it extremely risky to go in, especially if smart AV is on the other side. going into the middle of a compound, then AV starts striking you, you'll probably die before you get out of the compound. This would just make it worse, as now infantry wouldn't even need to call someone to tackle the HAV; they would need to only shoot at it. well the weak spots are current in dust so just to experiment you could try attempt shooting at them now to see how easy it is to hit a mobile vehicles weakspot.
I do it all the time. And again, all of you are making it to where most of the vehicle has weak points, and fairly large ones at that. |
Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
410
|
Posted - 2014.07.25 22:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
1: That punishes armor based vehicles
2: It's very easy to get on top of a vehicle
3: We're most likely sealed in pods (same for DS pilots), and therefore makes even less sense, since that's additional armor
4: Why in the hell would a engineer make a hole that goes straight towards the pilot?
Still no.
1. it should work on shielded vehicles the same way. 2. Have you tried to vehicle rodeo lately? 3. NOPE; we control vehicles in the very similar same manner we control our guns. Standard co-processing interface. Smallest vehicle we could control that has such things are the MCC. 4. Because engineering has not come up with a feasible solution to all the problems. Worlds most expensive jet can still be taken out with a single steel rod shoved down the intake. Oddly enough most tank engines are the same way since they use jet engines now a days. Of course we're not talking an entirely catastrophic explosion but loss of power is lethal for either type of vehicle. Regular rotary engines are also subject to self destruction if you rammed a bullet into the engine that screwed one piston.
1: Even then, still bad.
2: Yes, it was easy.
3: Have you seen the inside of the HAV and dropship cockpits? I sure haven't.
4: Quote:4: Why in the hell would a engineer make a hole that goes straight towards the pilot? learn to read. And that would be a no. I'm fine with extra damage (as that what we pretty much have), but loss of movement is a no. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
16013
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Posted - 2014.07.25 22:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Roger Cordill wrote:
1: That punishes armor based vehicles
2: It's very easy to get on top of a vehicle
3: We're most likely sealed in pods (same for DS pilots), and therefore makes even less sense, since that's additional armor
4: Why in the hell would a engineer make a hole that goes straight towards the pilot?
Still no.
1. it should work on shielded vehicles the same way. 2. Have you tried to vehicle rodeo lately? 3. NOPE; we control vehicles in the very similar same manner we control our guns. Standard co-processing interface. Smallest vehicle we could control that has such things are the MCC. 4. Because engineering has not come up with a feasible solution to all the problems. Worlds most expensive jet can still be taken out with a single steel rod shoved down the intake. Oddly enough most tank engines are the same way since they use jet engines now a days. Of course we're not talking an entirely catastrophic explosion but loss of power is lethal for either type of vehicle. Regular rotary engines are also subject to self destruction if you rammed a bullet into the engine that screwed one piston. 1: Even then, still bad. 2: Yes, it was easy. 3: Have you seen the inside of the HAV and dropship cockpits? I sure haven't. 4: Quote:4: Why in the hell would a engineer make a hole that goes straight towards the pilot? learn to read. And that would be a no. I'm fine with extra damage (as that what we pretty much have), but loss of movement is a no.
I was saying that if you install a module that removed the weakness (and it would apply to av shots as well) it should come at the cost of movement.
CPM 0 Secretary
Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist
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Soulja Ghostface
MCDUSTDONALDS
2414
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Posted - 2014.07.26 00:23:00 -
[42] - Quote
We could bring everything in my signature back
> BRING THE VEHICLES OF OLD BACK FROM THE DEAD!
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Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
911
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Posted - 2014.07.26 00:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
Roger Cordill wrote:
lolwut? okay
Well, if you must have an answer it seems like you've misinterpreted, failed to grasp, or possibly even didn't really read through my post and then responded unfavorably to concepts or ideas I am not actually presenting. While I was trying to find common ground and further explore the ideas presented in the thread. I think EWAR should be important and having working EWAR mechanics should take precedence over figuring out how to add small arms fire vs. vehicle combat to the game. But designing a more sophisticated damage model for vehicles will only broaden the possibilities for deep and engaging EWAR. Thing is, this is not a thread about EWAR. Or AV weaponry. Nowhere do I suggest that small arms should take over the role of AV weaponry.
1. More granular does not mean "Legion should be just like Arma." Limited mobility does not mean your character has to lie down on the ground for half an hour until they can get some triage. Limited mobility could be anything to reduced jump height to to a penalty to stamina regen. Limited mobility after taking damage does not equal slow paced gameplay. Destiny has fast paced PvP, and "stunlock". As in, when you take damage from certain types of weapons it limits your mobility and also can throw off your aim when you ads. Personally I would like to see Legion become both more tactical and more fast paced than its predecessor, Dust 514. You may be able to shoot my legs out from under me, but I can still escape, with my rocket pack!
2. What i did write was "I am not trying to argue that any small arms fire in and of itself should disable every vehicle." Not sure how that got interpreted as a suggestion that small arms fire should only damage tanks. I was only using tanks as a hypothetical example. But if you want more, how about, the LAV turret weapon should take damage from all small arms fire. Tank hard systems (drive train, engine, cooling systems, exhaust systems, ammunition racks, or energy weapon ammunition banks) should not take damage from infantry laser weapons. Those are just examples of ways in which to think about or conceptualize how small arms v. vehicles could work in Legion if vehicles have a much more sophisticated damage model.
2.1. Anyway, does anyone know what the classes of ground vehicles are called in Legion? To the best of my knowledge all we really have to go on are the vehicles currently in Dust 514. So I assume you mean HAV. So nowhere do I suggest that an HAV should be "More vulnerable than it already is." For that to even make sense you have to already assume that vehicles in Legion are the same as vehicles in Dust 514. I do not make that assumption. Project legion needs to jettison the entire conception of vehicles that CCP delivered with Dust 514 and start over from scratch. Basing vehicle design on how vehicles play in Dust 514 not the way to go.
3. A tank is not a spaceship. Not really impressed with appeal to EVE since tanks won't be flying around in space. I am not a game designer, only an armchair game designer, and was not even attempting to balance shield v. armor v. infantry for all possible vehicles in Legion. That was just one off the top of my head example of how a game designer could introduce a situational vulnerability to vehicles that would take risk and skill on the part of the attacker and /or lack of awareness and carelessness on the part of the tank crew to result in any significant damage to the tank. Also, if shields are supposed to work exactly like they are described in the link to EVElopedia, why don't they protect the driver of an LAV? Oh, maybe because the better they are the more opaque they become. Hmmm.
"For instance, maybe a tank could have a targeting camera that you could shoot and disable as shields went through a power cycle."
Maybe ground vehicles need to have power cycles that allow the cameras that the drivers and gunners use to shoot the guns and drive the tank to actually function on ground based vehicle shield tech. Maybe not. None of the specifics are really that important to me, in the end. They are all just details. As stated in my earlier post "GǪarguments as to how those weak spots should work or if they are "realistic" or totally arbitrary design decisions are moot."
4. Not sure where you are getting the "kill the pilot with a relatively easy shot, making the pilot lose a bunch of ISK" thing from. Those are entirely your ideas. But for the record, the shot should be skillful and the player using a vehicle should not lose a bunch of ISK. Happy now? But you know what they say in EVE Online. "DOn't fly what you can't afford to lose."
Also, "It is better to have anti vehicle weapons that actually work than to try to figure out a way to make every other weapon in the game an anti vehicle weapon." Before you go around raving that I just wan AV to blow up every tank without infantry even having to aim, let me clarify that by "work" I mean for both the vehicle drivers, gunners, and pilots, and the infantry. An AV weapon that is so powerful and easy to use that it becomes boring for all involved is not one that works. On the other hand, vehicles that rule the field and can't be countered by AV weaponry are also boring and do not work either.
What I am mainly suggesting is that Legion should have a more sophisticated damage model for vehicles. What does that mean? That means that each vehicle is modeled more completely, given different parts, more than front, back, sides, turret, armor, shield. More than a few "vulnerable" shapes on the vehicle model that turn red and take extra damage when you shoot at them. This will allow CCP to implement deeper and more meaningful EWAR, or AV v vehicle combat. It would also allow CCP to add some options for players to damage vehicles with small arms fire if that is something they want to get into. Personally I think it will add some life to the game. |
Syeven Reed
G0DS AM0NG MEN
784
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Posted - 2014.07.26 06:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well one thing is I am not expecting a single individual taking out the vehicles easily on their lonesome emptying the entire contents of their weapons into the weak spots and if they do it for the wrong reasons they should have the serious risk of being out of ammo against threats they could have killed instead.
This is more for what should happen if a vehicle pilot decides he wants to put his vehicle into someplace extremely risky.
Either way things that change armour models on the vehicle needs clear model indicators that such are installed. Oh no of course not, whilst that would be funny it would be wildly unbalanced . Im not suggesting to make it easy.
Word Crimes
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