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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 13:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:Vrain Matari wrote: Imagine facing your mirror image opponent, but with them basically 10 to 15 percent better at everything. How is that fight going to go?
So other suits like the sentinels get a 10-15% bonus to one or two base attributes like damage resistance, but Assaults get 10-15% bonus to "everything"? Don't you think this is no only overpowered but also does nothing to define the Assault role other than just buffing their base stats?
Don't get me wrong I think a simple HP increase doesn't really accomplish that either, but there are far more eloquent suggestions on the forums here.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote: Lastly, the assault suit needs to be a generalist's suit, so some of it's bonuses have to be generic and apply broadly to all races and many playstyles. These soft buffs do that, and they do it in a hot fixable fashion.
I completely disagree. Assault, like Logistics and Sentinels and Scouts, are specialty suits. They're supposed to be focused on a particular facet of gameplay and should have bonuses that push it towards that specific facet. Frame Suits on the other hand ARE generalist suits, so if you applied a bonus like this more towards Frame Suits, Id be a lot more supportive of it. However, Assaults need to have a specific role they're designed around, not some generalist role
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Honest question, what about another equipment slot? Logis still have an advantage due to fitting bonus and cloaky scouts need one for the cloak.
Absolutly not. I dislike the Scouts having 2 equipment already as I feel it devalues the Logistics quite a lot, as we often see Scouts running around being better Logis than the Logis because of all the advantages being a scout brings, as well as two equipment.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Honest question, what about another equipment slot? Logis still have an advantage due to fitting bonus and cloaky scouts need one for the cloak. Absolutly not. I dislike the Scouts having 2 equipment already as I feel it devalues the Logistics quite a lot, as we often see Scouts running around being better Logis than the Logis because of all the advantages being a scout brings, as well as two equipment. Pokey, Scouts generally do more than run around cloaked. We place uplinks, scan enemy positions, serve AV functions, etc. Back when we were broken, cloak was supposed to "fix" us ... not standardize us.
I understand the reasoning behind it, I dont particularly like it, but I get it (I run scout fairly regularly as well). To be fair the Scout is partially a Support role character, providing a mix of intel as well as asset control and some combat services. So the two equipment is acceptable, even if I still kinda merrrr at it.
My point being that adding equipment for the sake of adding it on an Assault is just going to devalue the Logi further. The Assault is not a support role, it is a purely combat role. And while having one equipment for some personal use is good, giving it additional support capabilities just infringes on other's roles further.
Don't get me wrong, Im all about buffing up the Assault, but the right things need to be buffed, and adding additional support abilities is not the right way to go about doing it.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 15:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Leeroy Gannarsein wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Honest question, what about another equipment slot? Logis still have an advantage due to fitting bonus and cloaky scouts need one for the cloak. Absolutly not. I dislike the Scouts having 2 equipment already as I feel it devalues the Logistics quite a lot, as we often see Scouts running around being better Logis than the Logis because of all the advantages being a scout brings, as well as two equipment. Pokey, Scouts generally do more than run around cloaked. We place uplinks, scan enemy positions, serve AV functions, etc. Back when we were broken, cloak was supposed to "fix" us ... not standardize us. I have a proto scout, and I don't think I've ever fit a cloak. My favourite loadouts has to be Allotek Nanohives and Gauged Uplinks. Gimps the rest of the fitting, or it would if EWAR mods weren't so light on fitting. I know a guy who runs a Nanite injector and a Repair Tool. I think Pokey has a point.
And yes you're right, many of the scouts I've spoken with don't even use the cloak anymore after the reduction of the profile dampening it has, which basically allows them to be pocket-logis with 2 equipment slots.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2349
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Posted - 2014.07.16 16:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:
Should built the cloaks into the suits and left them with only one slot.
Bingo. That's exactly what we said at the time. And we were told "no" :-) Either way, I think we can do better for Assaults ... Maybe a 2nd grenade slo mixed in with the other improvements? If that'd require client-side change, maybe +100% to grenade count?
Well I've been chatting with Logi and Assault folks a like, trying to get Medium suits in general more balanced and useful, this is the current state of the discussion
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18i0Z93RGQbZD-_OMwXmYDJk4ORDBml5Xq_2k_4sF8UY/edit?usp=sharing
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2355
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Posted - 2014.07.16 17:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote: The reason I rallied this post is because while the Assaults are a defined role, other roles already kill better than them. You will not find a role that can kill better than a heavy, not with the HMG DPS. What you can do however is make the Assault a suit that LOVES to push. Speed helps it keep up with Scouts and use their intel, but don't buff their stamina. A bonus to module effeacy allows Assaults that are hurt to fall back, and then return. Again, not as fast as scouts, but not so frickin slow that they need a Logi to heal, not unless they stack 700 armor.
While Assaults should be the 2nd fastest suits, they should be no means be able to match the speed of the Scout. If anything they should have a lot of stamina so they can keep moving, rather than burst of speed which is really more rewarding for the scout role which is about flanking and gathering information before the rest of the team is already in the shithole.
As for the HMG, yes, within its range it should be devastating, however the Assault should be the king of killing anything outside that range, and it's currently not. It needs to have the skills and damage output to be able to be a mid range specialist, mowing down heavies before they get into range. Medium suits in general need to have bonuses which makes them extremely good at active tanking and regenerating HP quickly as this is particularly well suited for the mid-range fighter.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2361
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: Assaults need to have a specific role they're designed around, not some generalist role . So your tying to fit them in a box ? The thing that I like about what CCP is doing with the scouts is that they seen where they went wrong and they fixed it , those who use scouts as light assaults would have done so because of their displeasure with the current bonuses that assaults have .. the only one that I like is when they gave the skill for weapons because that let the advanced assault fit damage mods and pro weapons and that's more offense than they were use to without maxing the tree branch , which a lot of newer players could not take advantage of ... so in a since it was giving them a taste of what they could have with the branch investment along with the role bonus ( Like reload skills and such ) , so that gives one incentive to skill more and focus on that role to improve their performance which should be promoted , but what Vrain is doing is not penalizing one for thinking out side the box .. like I use to Caldari assault before I started using Amarr Logi for the side arm and all , for anti-vehicle as well and also ran scanners and e-war while laying spawns , without the shared bonus and sniped also performing more than just frontline assault .. which is how it should be played . The commando cant really be adaptive and to the EQ question , that suits needs a grenade slot and another EQ slot .. but the assault should be the platform that promotes creative game styles and play and not be constrained by certain role based bonuses that place them in a box , where independent thought is not taken advantage of . Where there obvious differences are not highlighted , like Gal's ability to armor tank and rep at the same time or the fact that threw using rangers , they can see better or regulators they can gain a shield recharge benefit . Amarr the same and use stamina and kincats . Causing creative thinking outside the constraints of a " Box " should be promoted and not excluded . I can understand where he is coming from in his approach and appreciate it as well .
You act like I want them to have a pre made fit that cant be changed, and thats far from the truth. Im saying that as a player, when I go into a Specialty suit, I want to feel like it actually has a specialty. Giving the the Assault a bunch of minor "indirect" bonses doesn't make it a better slayer suit, it just makes it slightly better suit than it was at level 1. Suits should be flexible, yes, thats why we have all these neat modules and slots and equipment to customize with. But when you train into a speciality suit, those bonuses it get should encourage you to use that suit to play a certain role. Giving the Assault "Generalist" roles does not encourage a certain kind of playstyle, and thus I can't agree with it.
Now if you wanted to give generalist bonuses to the Medium Frame? ******* sweet, I love that idea. But the Assault Bonuses should scream "THIS IS THE SUIT YOU WEAR GO TO KILL PEOPLE" and minor upgrades to reload and sprint speed and all kinds of indirect stats doesn't do that. Like I said I don't want to sound like I'm shitting on the idea, because its a pretty legit idea, but Id rather see it applied to Medium Frame suits instead of Assaults specifically.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2380
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Posted - 2014.07.17 15:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:This is coming together quite nicely
Charlie YES - More PG/CPU, playing around with numbers, maybe 10% across the board YES - More EHP, 100 to 150 ehp, racially consistent to shields/armor YES/NO - Another equipment slot, maybe only ADV and PRO, including the necessary PG/CPU
Delta Another Role bonus, ROF, damage, TBD, ammo capacity bonus, Racial efficacy bonuses, f.ex. GA to dmg mods and/or reps, etc. Caldari reduction to Rail Rifle kick, spool up time Gallente, ROF(unless role bonus) Fitting/capacity bonus to Grenades
More HP and PG/CPU are reasonable.
Equipment is a no no. Yes you can argue that a repping nanohive makes you a better slayer, but only for point defense which should not be a trait of the Assault. Assaults need to be extremely mobile killing machines, not something that encourages people to camp / be psudo Sentinels or Logistics.
I strongly advise you to NOT change the rate of fire. Rate of fire is a tool used to control minimum range in weapons, specifically the mentality that lower fire rate is poor for close range (Rail Rifle) where high fire rate is quite good for close range (Assault Rifle). While ROF increases DPS, it also modifies that minimum range. The issue with this is that shorter ranged weapons such as the Assault Rifle will gain close to no benefit from a decrease in minimum range, whereas a Rail Rifle would gain a huge benefit. This causes certain weapons of the same class to benefit from the bonus far better than others. If you want to up DPS, increase the damage per shot, not the fire rate.
Medium Suits as a whole should be focused around powerful HP regeneration. They should have the shortest downtime between engagements and I firmly believe both Assaults and Logistics should share in these defensive capabilities (Logistics to a lesser extent)
Racial Weapon Support skills are great. Yes Commando and Assault are redundant, we can't remove commandos, but don't be afraid to make them similar. Good reload speed makes to Commando proficient with light AV weapons which typically have small magazines, whereas Assaults should get support skills for Anti-Infantry weapons. The magazine size/suppression concept for Commandos is also one worth looking at (just be prepared for Shield HAV pilots calling for nerfs when a Commando runs up with 2 Plasma Cannons that can each fire twice without reloading), but I would still feel comfortable if both Commandos and Assaults received the DPS bonus.
Grenades bonuses are great idea for Assaults.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2380
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yosihisa Mozzare wrote:Why not add an special equipment for assaults? like the cloak field for Scouts. For example,"Acceleration module" if you activate it, you can move faster and jump higher during some period of time, but it enlarges your profile and sounds noisy Enemies must find you are assaulting, but you have chance to dodge their bullets and leave them behind with amazing speed! now Scouts pierce a defense line stealthily, in contrast, new assaults do it recklessn+în+Ö. Doesn't it sound cool?
Already spoke to CPM0 about this, Devs wont do it because they don't want to add an active equipment module that doesn't have a visual indication that it's active (such as the scout cloaking field effect), and since they can't add any visual indication, they don't want to do it.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2380
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Yosihisa Mozzare wrote: why cant Devs add any visual indication? are they too busy to develop new items?
Yes. That and lack of manpower. I suspect the number of people working on Dust now is extremely small.
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Pokey Dravon for CPM1
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2380
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Posted - 2014.07.17 18:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yosihisa Mozzare wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Yosihisa Mozzare wrote: why cant Devs add any visual indication? are they too busy to develop new items?
Yes. That and lack of manpower. I suspect the number of people working on Dust now is extremely small. Plus it would likeley require a client update which isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future. Thankyou for your answering. I hope DUST development go active again... or Legion is released early.
Well just because new art assets can't be added doesn't mean there are not other cool things we can do to make Dust a better game. Right now the focus should be on balancing what's broken, but in time we can move onto getting a little more creative within our limitations.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2384
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Posted - 2014.07.17 23:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
You know I've been debating with people about if Assaults should get a direct damage bonus. People seem really uneasy about boosting damage directly, however the more I think about it, Sentinels simply boost their defense directly. The difference of course is that Sentinels resists specific damage types, so if we boost specific damage types for the Assault (ie their racial weapons) I don't really think its a problem. If anything it helps the Assaults counter the Sentinel bonus. An alteration of this could of course be a damage bonus for their racial weapon, but only against shields or armor, depending on the race (much like the proficiency bonus) which people may be more comfortable with.
That being said the idea of an increased magazine/ammo capacity for Commandos is growing on me. I'm fine with the loss of the 10% damage buff in exchange for the magazine bonus, however I firmly beleive the Commando should retain the reload bonus. Large magazine as well as quick reloads would make the Commando the king of sustained fire, allowing minimal downtime for constant suppressive fire. In addition, AV Weapons which are typically long reload and small magazines, would benefit greatly from magazine and reload bonuses. This paired with the fact that the Commandos carry two light weapons, 1 for personal defense and 1 for AV, would make them exceptionally good Light AV specialists.
The biggest issue with this however comes down to the Amarr. Since the duration that Amarr weapons can fire is directly linked to heat buildup, the Amarr Commando would gain little from a bigger magazine, as it would need to stop shooting in order to let the weapon cool down first before continuing to fire. The only reasonable way to really counter this is to give them heat reduction, but since that's going to the Assault...it's a messy problem. You could consider shortened seize delay and reduced feedback damage, which could get interesting.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2385
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Posted - 2014.07.18 01:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Im curious if seize time is a variable that can be modified. I wonder what would happen if you drastically lowered feedback damage and then reduced seize time to zero. That might give the effect you're talking about which would be sweet, but the mechanic may not be hot fixable.
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