DUST Search - Overhauling the Commando/Assault (also LMGs.. kinda..)

Aeon Amadi wrote:

DeathwindRising wrote:

commandos dont have the regen for sustained fire. at least not the shield tanking ones. the armor tankers can get reps while taking dammage. shield tankers have to duck into cover for prolonged periods of time, which makes their ability to provide suppressive fire diminished over time.

unless the caldari and minmatar can regen shield while taking damage, these two wont work. that why ive always been against the idea. shield tankers simply can not stand out of cover long enough to provided sustained suppressive fire currrently

Thing is, with a range increase on the Caldari Commando, you shouldn't be taking significant enough damage to not be able to dispatch whatever is shooting at you. Your engagement range will be much higher than anything else, save for a Sniper Rifle or Forge Gun - both of which are likely to kill you or suppress you anyway. That being said, your down time is dramatically increased for long-range engagements and vulnerable at closer engagements, which to me sounds like a great trade-off.

Minmatar, with an increase to splash damage or radius, would be using Mass Drivers - which can fire over cover. A unique benefit that allows a skilled user to place rounds into enemy cover and force them out or even fire out indirectly without having to leave cover themselves. A very powerful defensive option for a shield tanker, I feel.

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Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6272	Posted - 2014.07.13 09:39:00 - [1] - Quote READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH BEFORE PROCEEDING. I want to illustrate that this is an IDEA. It's a concept, a hypothesis, a theory. It's abstract and not 100% fleshed out. It will also probably -never- happen and should not be taken too seriously. Please note that numbers will not be included as this is just proposing a vague concept, not specifics and the proposal is entirely up for discussion. I fully expect there will be chinks in the idea. Not all proposals are my own and have been suggested by other players. The general idea is to turn the Commando into a suppression unit while opening up some room for the Assault to actuall focus on front-line combat. Giving Commandos and Assaults offense-oriented roles but in vastly different ways. While also, without needing new art assets, implementing the much proposed (and loved) 'LMG'... kinda. Commandos Role Bonus: 100% increase to magazine capacity (not per level) -----> Possibly change to fitting reduction on weaponry Amarr Racial: Reduced seize duration -----> Possibly change to (or include) reduced weapon feedback damage Caldari Racial: Increased effective range Gallente Racial: Reduced reload speed Minmatar Racial: Increased ROF -----> Possibly change to increased splash damage -----> Possibly change to increased splash radius "Holy [redacted] Aeon, 100% is crazy!" Not really, it's not getting any more ammo than anyone else, just cuts out the reload between magazines, so to speak. What this does is turns the Commando into a suppressive unit that focuses on sustained fire and utilizing aspects of racial combat philosophy respectively, retaining the offense-oriented role in a unique way that opens up opportunities to utilize their weapons respectively. Now onto Assaults. Assaults Role bonus: Change to damage increase -----> Possibly retain fitting reduction instead Amarr: Retain current heat mitigation -----> Possibly reduction armor plate speed penalty? Caldari: Shield energizer/recharger bonus Gallente: Reactive plate/repairer bonus Minmatar: Biotics bonus? Maybe??? Haven't quite fleshed the Assaults out just yet but the overall idea is to allow them better damage application with racial specializations focusing on defensive options. The much loved heat mitigation on the Amarr Assault is retained, while the Caldari and Gallente get a much more useful defensive bonus that encourages regeneration over brick tanking, meaning much less down-time between firefights. The Minmatar Assault, however, is rather difficult to find a bonus for with the magazine capacity bonus going over to Commandos and I'd love to hear suggestions on that. Feel free to discuss, thread is open to constructive criticism and overall feedback. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 428	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:10:00 - [2] - Quote commandos dont have the regen for sustained fire. at least not the shield tanking ones. the armor tankers can get reps while taking dammage. shield tankers have to duck into cover for prolonged periods of time, which makes their ability to provide suppressive fire diminished over time. unless the caldari and minmatar can regen shield while taking damage, these two wont work. that why ive always been against the idea. shield tankers simply can not stand out of cover long enough to provided sustained suppressive fire currrently
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 1265	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:45:00 - [3] - Quote After having discussed this idea at length with Aeon. (Hammering his head, having my head hammered.) The idea itself is solid, without the use of art assets being implemented, and giving Commando's a fire support role comparative to an Assault that would be more 'in close' combative. The dual role ability to 'Suppress' as Commando, and 'Attack' as Assault has greater teamplay dynamics, and can also allow each to operate on their own, as much as together in just as many senses. It also provides a clear cut difference between the two 'Offensive' Suit Role we have at current. The Black Jackal for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6275	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:53:00 - [4] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: commandos dont have the regen for sustained fire. at least not the shield tanking ones. the armor tankers can get reps while taking dammage. shield tankers have to duck into cover for prolonged periods of time, which makes their ability to provide suppressive fire diminished over time. unless the caldari and minmatar can regen shield while taking damage, these two wont work. that why ive always been against the idea. shield tankers simply can not stand out of cover long enough to provided sustained suppressive fire currrently Thing is, with a range increase on the Caldari Commando, you shouldn't be taking significant enough damage to not be able to dispatch whatever is shooting at you. Your engagement range will be much higher than anything else, save for a Sniper Rifle or Forge Gun - both of which are likely to kill you or suppress you anyway. That being said, your down time is dramatically increased for long-range engagements and vulnerable at closer engagements, which to me sounds like a great trade-off. Minmatar, with an increase to splash damage or radius, would be using Mass Drivers - which can fire over cover. A unique benefit that allows a skilled user to place rounds into enemy cover and force them out or even fire out indirectly without having to leave cover themselves. A very powerful defensive option for a shield tanker, I feel. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 442	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:38:00 - [5] - Quote Kinda cool. I was hoping you were suggesting something like 'Medium slots for commandos with LMGs inside!' though. Although I can't think how you'd differentiate an LMG from an AR or HMG... I'm not sure I like the idea of an ROF bonus for Min - that's infringing on assault territory then, especially in conjunction with the 136 shot Six Kin ACR. For MinAssault, maybe a damage mod bonus to promote ganking playstyles? I don't think there are any other modules in the game aside from Biotics. It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6278	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:41:00 - [6] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Kinda cool. I was hoping you were suggesting something like 'Medium slots for commandos with LMGs inside!' though. Although I can't think how you'd differentiate an LMG from an AR or HMG... I'm not sure I like the idea of an ROF bonus for Min - that's infringing on assault territory then, especially in conjunction with the 136 shot Six Kin ACR. Well, I think looking at a Commando with an AR would be a pretty clear sign but I do agree that there might be some overlap with the HMG. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Leeroy Gannarsein Legio DXIV 442	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:45:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Kinda cool. I was hoping you were suggesting something like 'Medium slots for commandos with LMGs inside!' though. Although I can't think how you'd differentiate an LMG from an AR or HMG... I'm not sure I like the idea of an ROF bonus for Min - that's infringing on assault territory then, especially in conjunction with the 136 shot Six Kin ACR. Well, I think looking at a Commando with an AR would be a pretty clear sign but I do agree that there might be some overlap with the HMG. Well, the AR doesn't really have more raw damage potential than the Assault; all it can do is never stop firing ever (which is good, of course). But an RoF bonus of say 5% per level (or even 2%) would take the ACR's DPS to over 500 (or more than Duvolle) but firing for an extraordinary amount of time. I'd be much happier with the MD bonus, tbh. It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6278	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:58:00 - [8] - Quote Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Leeroy Gannarsein wrote: Kinda cool. I was hoping you were suggesting something like 'Medium slots for commandos with LMGs inside!' though. Although I can't think how you'd differentiate an LMG from an AR or HMG... I'm not sure I like the idea of an ROF bonus for Min - that's infringing on assault territory then, especially in conjunction with the 136 shot Six Kin ACR. Well, I think looking at a Commando with an AR would be a pretty clear sign but I do agree that there might be some overlap with the HMG. Well, the AR doesn't really have more raw damage potential than the Assault; all it can do is never stop firing ever (which is good, of course). But an RoF bonus of say 5% per level (or even 2%) would take the ACR's DPS to over 500 (or more than Duvolle) but firing for an extraordinary amount of time. I'd be much happier with the MD bonus, tbh. Wasn't the one who proposed it. But yes, I agree the MD bonus is preferable. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 428	Posted - 2014.07.13 14:46:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: commandos dont have the regen for sustained fire. at least not the shield tanking ones. the armor tankers can get reps while taking dammage. shield tankers have to duck into cover for prolonged periods of time, which makes their ability to provide suppressive fire diminished over time. unless the caldari and minmatar can regen shield while taking damage, these two wont work. that why ive always been against the idea. shield tankers simply can not stand out of cover long enough to provided sustained suppressive fire currrently Thing is, with a range increase on the Caldari Commando, you shouldn't be taking significant enough damage to not be able to dispatch whatever is shooting at you. Your engagement range will be much higher than anything else, save for a Sniper Rifle or Forge Gun - both of which are likely to kill you or suppress you anyway. That being said, your down time is dramatically increased for long-range engagements and vulnerable at closer engagements, which to me sounds like a great trade-off. Minmatar, with an increase to splash damage or radius, would be using Mass Drivers - which can fire over cover. A unique benefit that allows a skilled user to place rounds into enemy cover and force them out or even fire out indirectly without having to leave cover themselves. A very powerful defensive option for a shield tanker, I feel. what is the range increase? optimal? effective? both? how much? light weapons or sidearms too?
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 6178	Posted - 2014.07.13 16:36:00 - [10] - Quote I really don't feel like this actually addresses the problems with assaults. Doing more damage isn't going to magically put people into assault suits over scouts. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.

Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8751	Posted - 2014.07.13 17:45:00 - [11] - Quote The problem with a speed penalty reduction for Amarr assaults is the same as when people suggested it for Amarr scout, and that is the Amarr suit is already the slowest suit so this bonus would simply be used to "catch up" to the the speed that the other suits already have naturally. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 430	Posted - 2014.07.13 20:04:00 - [12] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I really don't feel like this actually addresses the problems with assaults. Doing more damage isn't going to magically put people into assault suits over scouts. How do feel about assaults vs scouts? If you want to slay, which do you currently choose and why? I feel that scout passive scan range is key to what makes to them so effective at slaying. But others feel that it's part of what makes scouts.
Silver Strike44 Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 103	Posted - 2014.07.13 20:31:00 - [13] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: The problem with a speed penalty reduction for Amarr assaults is the same as when people suggested it for Amarr scout, and that is the Amarr suit is already the slowest suit so this bonus would simply be used to "catch up" to the the speed that the other suits already have naturally. Theoretically, they could be moving at the same speed as the other assault, but with more hp. Me: Donate to The Rammeh McRam House Charity. Scrub: What's the cause? Rammeh: I'm retarded.
Silver Strike44 Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 103	Posted - 2014.07.13 20:44:00 - [14] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I really don't feel like this actually addresses the problems with assaults. Doing more damage isn't going to magically put people into assault suits over scouts. I agree, assault suits in general should recieve some buffs to be competitive with scout suits like to ewar stats as well as hp and possibly movement speed in addition to reworked bonuses. And yes, I do realize that some of these changes will be implemented in charlie, which is good. I also think that if one of the racial assault bonuses is tied into weapons, then they all should, just as all scouts racials should be tied into ewar. Just as everyone else says, the amarr bonus should stay and remain unchanged. Minmatar could recieve a significant boost to ammo reserves of their weapons as all of them go through their normal reserves very quickly. Caldari and gallente are tricky and I will edit if I think of any good ones. Me: Donate to The Rammeh McRam House Charity. Scrub: What's the cause? Rammeh: I'm retarded.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11815	Posted - 2014.07.13 21:52:00 - [15] - Quote We talked and you know how I feel about LMG.... No amount of Ammo Capacity makes an Assault Rifle an LMG....they just don't feel or sound powerful enough..... "I guess this is goodbye for now Little One. This is how you will become one of us, one of the Amarr." - Kador Ouryon
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6284	Posted - 2014.07.14 00:39:00 - [16] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I really don't feel like this actually addresses the problems with assaults. Doing more damage isn't going to magically put people into assault suits over scouts. Wasn't designed to. The proposal was to change the roles up a bit so that Commandos aren't so focused on front-line combat and Assaults can be, as they're more mobile. Deciding a role is a baseline and, again, it's entirely up for discussion. Changing bonuses around was never going to make Assaults better than Scouts, requires a lot more than that. Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Aeon Amadi Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6284	Posted - 2014.07.14 00:40:00 - [17] - Quote True Adamance wrote: We talked and you know how I feel about LMG.... No amount of Ammo Capacity makes an Assault Rifle an LMG....they just don't feel or sound powerful enough..... Same could be said about Amarr/Minmatar vehicle placeholders though =P Useful Links Aeon Amadi for CPM1
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10904	Posted - 2014.07.14 01:33:00 - [18] - Quote I feel like for the Assault, a copy paste of the current Commando bonuses will be good. For the Commando, the bonuses you suggested are good. Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 433	Posted - 2014.07.14 02:17:00 - [19] - Quote There's nothing unique about assaults. Commandos get two light weapons Heavies get heavy weapons Scouts get cloaks, speed and ewar Logis get equipment slots Assaults have nothing unique. Something stupid like ammo regen would set them apart. Or two grenade slots. Or anything really that when someone sees an assault, they know exactly what it is.
trollface dot jpg The Bacon Corporation 217	Posted - 2014.07.14 04:10:00 - [20] - Quote Wanna hear an idea even crazier that would also work? (for commandos) -10% range, +10% damage for all racial weapons per level. 50% at max. (or, if it's considered too much, drop it to 5%/5% or 7%/7%) Slow moving shock troopers. They have high eHP but are too slow (and have too big of a hitbox) to out strafe any halfway decent player. Soooo..... Put them up close on the front lines where they belong by cutting their range, and equalize it by boosting their damage output proportionally. There are plenty of CQC areas where scouts have no equal. Give them one. Happy Monday everyone! Tro-lolo-lolo lolo-lo-lol RIP MAG, you will be missed. MAG Vet ~ Raven

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11827	Posted - 2014.07.14 04:43:00 - [21] - Quote trollface dot jpg wrote: Wanna hear an idea even crazier that would also work? (for commandos) -10% range, +10% damage for all racial weapons per level. 50% at max. (or, if it's considered too much, drop it to 5%/5% or 7%/7%) Slow moving shock troopers. They have high eHP but are too slow (and have too big of a hitbox) to out strafe any halfway decent player. Soooo..... Put them up close on the front lines where they belong by cutting their range, and equalize it by boosting their damage output proportionally. There are plenty of CQC areas where scouts have no equal. Give them one. Happy Monday everyone! Tro-lolo-lolo lolo-lo-lol I hatechu! "I guess this is goodbye for now Little One. This is how you will become one of us, one of the Amarr." - Kador Ouryon
trollface dot jpg The Bacon Corporation 217	Posted - 2014.07.14 06:36:00 - [22] - Quote True Adamance wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Wanna hear an idea even crazier that would also work? (for commandos) -10% range, +10% damage for all racial weapons per level. 50% at max. (or, if it's considered too much, drop it to 5%/5% or 7%/7%) Slow moving shock troopers. They have high eHP but are too slow (and have too big of a hitbox) to out strafe any halfway decent player. Soooo..... Put them up close on the front lines where they belong by cutting their range, and equalize it by boosting their damage output proportionally. There are plenty of CQC areas where scouts have no equal. Give them one. Happy Monday everyone! Tro-lolo-lolo lolo-lo-lol I hatechu! <3 RIP MAG, you will be missed. MAG Vet ~ Raven
Summ Dude Direct Action Resources 430	Posted - 2014.07.23 20:11:00 - [23] - Quote -Copy/pasted fro Aero's thread on this subject in General Discussions:- I've spent a lot of time thinking about what exactly to do with Assault suits to make them more appealing and less overshadowed. Number one thing in my mind has always been making sure they have a solid role to fill. With what Rattati's been posting lately, it would seem their intended role is indeed to be the slayer of the field. So with that in mind, overall I'm very for your suggested bonuses. But here's a few notes: Aero Yassavi wrote: 1) Damage The Assault role would do high DPS damage, so the proposed class bonus is 2% damage output of all light weapons and sidearms per level. This is similar to the current Commando racial bonuses, except because it is a class bonus it doesn't apply to specific weapons, meaning all the Assault suits can freely use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. I definitely think this is the right way to go for the Assault's role bonus, although I'm just slightly concerned that a 10% total buff to direct damage for all weapons may be a bit much. I mean, Commandos only get the damage bonus to one type of light weapons, and it's really taking the place of two smaller bonuses (more on that below). I wonder if 1% per level might be more balanced. But, your suggestion crtainly would make the Assault suit unequivocally the best slayer around and actually make players want to use it, so maybe it's fine. Aero Yassavi wrote: The Commando on the other hand would do sustained damage, so the proposed class bonus 20% clip size of all light weapons per level, meaning at max level the Commando's clip for all weapons is doubled. Once again, this would be the main bonus of the suit and it applies to all weapons, so all Commandos can use whichever weapons they want and still feel as though they are getting the main benefit of using the suit. The bonus may seem large, but keep in mind they, along with the assault, are the two main combat-offense oriented suits in the game and the Assault would have the higher DPS while the Commando would also become increasingly dependent on nanohives as they quickly burn through ammo. Again, definitely feels like the right way to go, but I worry that wielding two light weapons with double clip sizes is a bit too powerful. Would 10% per level not work? An extra half a clip is still incredibly useful. Aero Yassavi wrote: Racial Bonuses So first a quick note about something I've noticed with current racial bonuses; the standard trend seems to be actually getting two separate smaller bonuses. Logis get two bonuses to different aspects of their racial equipment, Scouts each get a bonus to two separate stats, and Sentinels get their two differing damage resistances. Commandos only get the one bonus, but I always figured that a direct damage bonus affecting multiple weapons worth as much as two complex damage mods (without any stacking penalty) was definitely worth those two bonuses. Assault suits however really got the short end of the stick here, something I've called out before. Aero Yassavi wrote: Assaults Amarr: 5% heat reduction to laser weapons per level. Perfect, no need to change it. Caldari: Cannot recall exactly what we were discussing for this unfortunately Gallente: Rate of fire increase to plasma weapons Minmatar: We didn't think of anything that would be good regarding their weapons, and the current Minmatar Assault bonus would go to the commandos and we don't want to overlap skills. We're thinking perhaps a bonus to all regenerative modules? So with what I mentioned above in mind, I'd suggest giving Assault suits one bonus to their racial weaponry, and then one bonus to their racially preferred method of tanking. So Amarr can keep their heat reduction bonus, and then also a bonus to armor plates. Caldari could perhaps get a reduction to either the kick or charge-up time of railgun weaponry, as well as a bonus to shield extenders. RoF for plasma weapons could work for Gallente, as long as it's not too big of an increase, and then also a bonus to armor repairers. For Minmatar, maybe a reduction to dispersion for projectile weapons? Not exactly sure what would work there. And then also a bonus to shield rechargers. Aero Yassavi wrote: Commandos Amarr: 10% reduction in seize duration of laser weapons per level. Perhaps also a reduction to overheat damage taken. Caldari: Some sort of range increase to rail weapons is what we're thinking, feel free to comment (as with anything else) Gallente: 5% reload bonus to plasma weapons per level, so it becomes a devastating close range monster that almost never stops firing Minmatar: Again, can't recall exactly what was discussed for this So again, I think Commandos should be getting two separate bonuses; I was thinking two separate bonuses to their race's weaponry. Amarr getting a reduction to seize duration and feedback damage works perfectly. For the Caldari, I'd be afraid of a range increase becoming abused very quickly. What about just a bonus to reload time and then either charge-up time or kick for railguns (whichever the Assault doesn't get)? And then the Gallente could get a bonus to reload time and dispersion for plasma weaponry, and the Minmatar could get a bonus to reload time and dispersion for projectile weaponry. Something like that. Not just a laymen, but the laymen. Winn Summ and lose Summ.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2463	Posted - 2014.07.23 22:32:00 - [24] - Quote This is kind of a compilation of a lot of things, Aeon's original idea for Commandos included with some racial bonuses I fleshed out a bit. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G7rSyT1rD-7q9xz8n4uqAFtqCtc6841cmx0vlf4IRSE/edit?usp=sharing Like my ideas? Pokey Dravon for CPM1


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