DUST Search - Sticky:Nova Knives in Hotfix Charlie

One Eyed King wrote:

safura trotsky wrote:

RECON BY FIRE wrote:

I understand that charging while sprinting is off the table, but if you don't make that change then I feel you should just leave knives alone. Part of the fun of knives is the amount of skill it takes to sneak in close and get the kill. The changes you have proposed so far are a step towards taking skill out of knife gameplay and will lead to such shittery as people hanging around corners with charged knives and swiping "just close enough" to get the instakill on everybody. That isn't fun, really for either party, and it's a form of gameplay that has no place in Dust/Legion/wtfever. Buff STD knives and either put in charging while sprinting or leave them alone. And yes, I understand the reason we don't have charging while sprinting is likely that it would take recoding to make that change.

Edit: Optimization skill change is good too.

Omg this...so much this

This doesn't make sense.

It is contradictory in a way I don't understand. I get why you would want sprint charge, but I disagree. I get why you would want no changes or next to no changes and keep them highly skilled and very difficult, and whole heartedly agree.

I don't get why given the latter part you would ever be ok with sprint charge, but NOT with a minor tweak like adding 0.5 m to range or a (hopefully) very slight aim adhesion.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2678	Posted - 2014.07.14 02:38:00 - [1] - Quote RedPencil wrote: Is that "Not Iggy" is your alt? You have no idea. In this case, Iggy is likely correct; to disagree with him would jeopardize your otherwise generally on-point track record. Backpedal speed at 100% is a balance issue; the Devs would do well to address it. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2728	Posted - 2014.07.14 13:26:00 - [2] - Quote Fremder V1 wrote: I'm sceptical about the benefits of a reduction in backpedaling speed. It would change the fluid feeling of movement for everyone, just to make the use of two weapons in certain situations a bit easier. Regardless of what my flanker is running, he'll have lesser odds of getting directly behind me ... * ... if I stick with friendlies. * ... if I'm squadded with a recon specialist. * ... if I periodically check my flank. If I fail to perform the above, and the flanker manages to sneak within slapping distance of my arse ... * All I need is enough HP to tank his alpha strike. * My free-pass bunny hop will consistently break hit detection of any followup NK attack. * My free-pass bunny hop serves dual purpose in that it can also place me beyond the SG's 5m optimal range. * My free-pass insta-spin flips the scales in my favor. * My free-pass backpedal can keep me forever beyond my flanker's reach. * My free-pass, ultra-precise fine rifle hipfire can insta-gib my flanker with little-to-no effort. Balancing backpedal isn't about making the flank/backstab easier; its about addressing the pool of free passes which encourage above all else to run HP modules and a Fine Rifle. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2729	Posted - 2014.07.14 13:39:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: I am very apprehensive about changing backpedaling speed as this affects everything else in the game as well. It's kinda the nuclear option, and I would prefer not to mess with it at the moment. Understood, and thank you for consideration. Pencil, myself and many others support an alternative to the nuclear option. Would it be technically possible to increase forward movement speed when knives are equipped? This would permit a knifer opportunity to catch up to and dispatch a backpedaler. Swing animation slows movement speed, such that a backpedaling target is always just out-of-reach when a strike would otherwise have landed. A tiny boost to forward movement speed combined your blade length improvement would remedy this issue (without drastically changing anything else). Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2730	Posted - 2014.07.14 14:03:00 - [4] - Quote Not Iggy wrote: 1. I don't understand how it will break the fluidity if backward movement speed wasn't 100%. Strafe speed is not 100% why would backward be any different? It would place it more inline with everything else. Besides if its that terrible fix it back in delta. 2. I'll still take faster forward movement while knives are equipped. But you will get more people starting a match with uplinks stacked kincats and a basic knife to get faster movement speed. Not to mention people likely using it to improve movement speed in general when trying to flee. 3. Also doesn't animation break once you hit above 11m/s. Which would mean a stacked proto minja will likely break those animations if knives are equipped. 4. With the upcoming buff to assault movement speeds Knifers won't stand a chance. <3 1. This certainly seems best; perhaps the Devs see something we don't. 2. While unlikely, I'm hoping its somehow feasible to tweak one metric without impacting the others. 3. Fairly certain that 11.11 m/s is attainable and not game-breaking; I suspect the breakpoint is higher. 4. Hadn't thought of that yet ... ouch! Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2740	Posted - 2014.07.14 16:48:00 - [5] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ... Signature is many yes. My Heroes * Calamity Jane * Annie Oakley * Morathi * Radar * Ripley Riley Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2740	Posted - 2014.07.14 17:09:00 - [6] - Quote Fremder V1 wrote: [ How would the majority of players who aren't knifers feel about such a change? (Maybe not as enthusiastic.) CCP: Hey pilots! Do you think we should dial back on the win-button because AV/HAV Balance? Pilots: stomping of feet CCP: Hey guys! Do you think we should dial back on the free-pass because CQC Balance? Guys: stroking of neckbeards Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2757	Posted - 2014.07.14 20:06:00 - [7] - Quote Fremder V1 wrote: They can jump around, so can we. They can spin around, so can we. They can shoot with low health, so can we, if needed. They can backpedal, we can run. Just walking straight at them is neither our only, nor our best option. Regardless of a reduced backpedaling speed. You call it a free pass, i call it a chance. We are talking about close combat situations in which we have a faster suit and a weapon that often enough could insta kill them. Wouldn't it be so difficult to hit a dancing target with knifes, thanks to the small field of view, we allready would hold the better cards. The advertised range increase and maybe the added adhesion should help. Maybe it will be enough, maybe not. We shall see. Not sure what it is you're trying to say, but 100% backpedal speed is not an FPS standard. As such, it should be explained and justified by those who support it. If it cannot be explained or justified, it should be corrected. The only explanation offered by neckbeards to date: 100% backpedal speed gives me a good chance to kill CQC fighters when they sneak up behind me. ^ Surely the Devs would not recognize this as sound basis; there must be other factors at play. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2783	Posted - 2014.07.14 23:58:00 - [8] - Quote :: beats dead horse :: - courtesy of Mollerz Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2805	Posted - 2014.07.15 12:30:00 - [9] - Quote Tweedle Dum wrote: Tweedle Dee wrote: ... either put in charging while sprinting or leave them alone. Omg this...so much this Double-Barreled, Infinite-Ammo Breach Shotgun I'm a big fan of the risk and skill requirements involved in knifing. I'm a big fan of the damage output we're allowed because of these risk and skill requirements. Sprint/Charge would subtract risk and skill from knifing; there will be no way to justify NK damage output if it were implemented. Being able to walk at full speed while holding a charge (or slashing) would be reasonable and appropriate. Being able to sprint while holding a charge would be overpowered. Sprint/Charge is a bad idea, and LogiBro is wise to dismiss it. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2837	Posted - 2014.07.15 17:59:00 - [10] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: safura trotsky wrote: RECON BY FIRE wrote: I understand that charging while sprinting is off the table, but if you don't make that change then I feel you should just leave knives alone. Part of the fun of knives is the amount of skill it takes to sneak in close and get the kill. The changes you have proposed so far are a step towards taking skill out of knife gameplay and will lead to such shittery as people hanging around corners with charged knives and swiping "just close enough" to get the instakill on everybody. That isn't fun, really for either party, and it's a form of gameplay that has no place in Dust/Legion/wtfever. Buff STD knives and either put in charging while sprinting or leave them alone. And yes, I understand the reason we don't have charging while sprinting is likely that it would take recoding to make that change. Edit: Optimization skill change is good too. Omg this...so much this This doesn't make sense. It is contradictory in a way I don't understand. I get why you would want sprint charge, but I disagree. I get why you would want no changes or next to no changes and keep them highly skilled and very difficult, and whole heartedly agree. I don't get why given the latter part you would ever be ok with sprint charge, but NOT with a minor tweak like adding 0.5 m to range or a (hopefully) very slight aim adhesion. [85%] Recon By Fire does not grasp the implications of Sprint/Charge. [03%] Recon By Fire is seeking to make knives OP so they later get nerfed. [12%] Other (including, but not limited to, posting for the sake of posting). Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2885	Posted - 2014.07.15 23:53:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: You are already moving at full speed while holding a charge with a Nova Knife. I will however do some testing to double check, but from what I can see you should be moving at the same speed while charging as walking normally. Was nearly certain that: * forward momentum slows during slash animation * walking while holding charge is slower than regular walking If I'm wrong on these points, then I apologize; it is not my intent to mislead. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2889	Posted - 2014.07.16 01:29:00 - [12] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: The only way to fix that is to allow sprint charge for the first .X seconds from charging (i.e. sprinting, start charging, can continue sprinting for .X seconds while charging) ^^That would help knifers more than anything. Fixes backpedal too. Provided .X is very brief, this might actually work. That said, permitting sprint/charge seems likely to be linked to a Boolean value; your suggestion would require additional parameters which may not exist client-side. Meaning, the coding which governs sprint/charge is likely "yes" or "no" and likely not able to handle conditionals like "yes for .05 seconds, but then no". Very clever though; way to think outside the box :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2915	Posted - 2014.07.16 11:53:00 - [13] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Ideally we wanted to add mechanics that meant you could move backwards at 100% speed but risk falling flat on your arse unless you also looked backwards at the same time, but this is outside of the scope of DUST. We will however be looking at a more polished mechanic in Legion. LMAO ... good stuff, Duncan! Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2944	Posted - 2014.07.16 18:04:00 - [14] - Quote Bad News, Brothers! Walked between two fixed points ... time elapsed: 7 seconds. Walked between the same points holding a charge ... 7 seconds. Walked between the same points all the while slashing ... 7 seconds. We were wrong. This changes nothing! Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2945	Posted - 2014.07.16 18:44:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: ... I have a feeling what's happening a lot is people moving in all sorts of directions in close combat, and that's where you lose space. The aim adhesion should directly address this. Makes sense. Looking forward trying it out :-) Thanks again for working on this for us. o7 Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2945	Posted - 2014.07.16 19:00:00 - [16] - Quote @ Iggy Isn't the plan aim adhesion + range increase? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2976	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:20:00 - [17] - Quote mollerz wrote: I remembered the other NK change I thought would help a lot. Can we have an auditory que when the knife is fully charged. It is really hard to tell when you are fully charged or not in fast moving conditions. And please- not like you guys wrecked the charged sniper rifle with it's hair dryer sound. maybe a slight beep or something. If I can hear it, they can hear it, and I really don't need more Heavies pirouetting when I'm at 3m and closing :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2977	Posted - 2014.07.16 23:45:00 - [18] - Quote mollerz wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: mollerz wrote: I remembered the other NK change I thought would help a lot. Can we have an auditory que when the knife is fully charged. It is really hard to tell when you are fully charged or not in fast moving conditions. And please- not like you guys wrecked the charged sniper rifle with it's hair dryer sound. maybe a slight beep or something. If I can hear it, they can hear it It will assuredly be too late at that point. Set backpedal and strafe speed to 80% of forward movement speed, and you've got yourself a deal. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2980	Posted - 2014.07.17 00:08:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: One other thing I can play with changing is making it so there is a smaller delay between releasing the trigger and you actually making each slash with the knives. For reference, the delay is 0.3 and 0.55 seconds for each knife hit from the moment you release the trigger. So ... Trigger released at 0.0 sec Blade A swings at +0.30 sec Blade B swings at +0.55 sec Interval between A and B is 0.25 sec That's a tough call. I'd hate for it to become detached from audio queues and animation. I'd also hate to land double swipes when my aim was off and I should've only landed one. If it were my experiment, I'd hold the Interval constant and reduce Blade A's delay to +0.15 seconds, such that Blade A swings almost immediately after release but the delay between A and B remains the same ... Trigger released at 0.0 sec Blade A swings at +0.15 sec Blade B swings at +0.40 sec Interval between A and B is 0.25 sec Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3009	Posted - 2014.07.17 12:53:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Logibro wrote: Alright, so after a little testing I'm going to reduce the knife hit time from 0.3 and 0.55 to 0.2 and 0.45. The animation however is fixed, so it will seem a bit quicker, but the hit markers will indicate accurately when you hit. Secondly, Nova Knife damage is now being changed to 120/160/200. And lastly, Nova Knives will do 50% damage to vehicles. No bonuses to hitting weak points (not yet at least). They will still not do damage to installations. I may revisit that last point if we at least reduce WP for destroying neutral turrets. Neat! If you don't mind our asking, what came of your experiments with Adhesion and Range Extension? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3009	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:48:00 - [21] - Quote ^ Very much like Aero's idea. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3013	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:48:00 - [22] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: I'm not very good at planting REs on HAVs, I always get gunned down or they notice me and run away before I can get down the 3rd one.. And we'll just have to wait and see for all the final changes before I switch anything up. The most I ever get on in one pass is two. Good tankers, only one. Its a 'bit like bullfighting ... Except you have to chase the bull around the pen :-) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3015	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:24:00 - [23] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: This is an important point. As a Sentinel my standard procedure when I take too much damage in a fire fight is to back up and strafe left or right behind cover. Reducing my backup speed would make advancing even more dangerous as an HMG SentinelGÇÖs slow turn speed makes turning my back on the enemy and running back to cover take far too long, and having to interrupt my suppression fire to get to cover would make me an easy target. As far as a Sentinel fighting a Scout, if a Scout canGÇÖt advance as fast as a Sentinel is backing up, then that Scout is warring far too much Plate. 1) The Sentinel's turn speed is exactly the same as every other frame, with or without plates. Tested and confirmed, and reconfirmed by the Devs themselves. There is no such thing as "slow turn speed". 2) There is not a single Scout in here who runs plates while Knifing. 3) The Sentinel's backpedal speed is no less a problem for NK users than other frame's. If a charged backstab fails to kill you -- which is most common with Sentinels -- you can fully rotate well in advance of a second charged attack. The best a Scout can do in these cases is to swing uncharged, hoping he lands enough blows to finish you off. To keep you within melee distance as you walk backwards, the Scout has no choice but to walk straight at you, directly into your HMG fire. No doubt Heavies think #3 this funny, much like HAV pilots used to think that Swarms were funny. But like Swarms and HAVs, this imbalance will eventually need to be addressed. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3018	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:58:00 - [24] - Quote @ Fox In hindsight, I kinda went spider-monkey on you and perhaps was wrong to do so. I should take into account that your experiences and observations may differ from mine; I've no idea which loadouts you run as a Heavy. If you want to see what I'm QQing about firsthand ... Tank up a Gal Sentinel, crank your sensitivity settings then get a buddy to try to knife you in the back. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3023	Posted - 2014.07.17 18:23:00 - [25] - Quote @ Fox That makes more sense; low HP sentinels are not part of the problem. With respect, you would better understand the problem if you had experienced it firsthand. To assume that I or other scouts are "doing it wrong" would be incorrect, irresponsible and beneath your lofty station :-). Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3211	Posted - 2014.07.23 22:39:00 - [26] - Quote If I'm reading Logibro correctly, he's saying the change to aim adhesion will have little, if any, effect. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3226	Posted - 2014.07.24 04:05:00 - [27] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Brokerib wrote: You can't balance a weapon around apex players like Moody or Musturd, knives need to be balanced around normal users if we're ever going to have more than a couple of dozen regular users. We literally just rebalanced scouts around apex players (in PC), please be consistent. Fair point, but I think you mistook his meaning. There's more to weapon balance than what you see in a Moody video. For every good NK montage out there, there's an equally good NK fail montage. Knives are consistently inconsistent; Moody himself has said that they generally aren't worth using in competitive play. These weapons are wielded by 300HP mercs who risk all on one shot against a 1,500HP opponents. Inconsistency is unacceptable. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 3346	Posted - 2014.07.29 02:31:00 - [28] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Can I ask why guns aren't getting a similar buff of sorts? Can you be more specific? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley