DUST Search - Proposed Re-New Change to Amarr Scout!

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Stefan Stahl wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Eventually, we hope he'll point these specializations toward their respective EWAR modules as a means of further discouraging FoTM tanky Scouts. In essence, it appears he wishes to do away with Assault Lite, and he has the Scout Community's support in doing so.

I really want range, precision and dampening to be separate roles. But I also want eWar to stay something that is in conflict with tanking, rather than being something you also put on your light assault suit additionally.

What speaks against this model:
Caldari -> precision
Amarr -> range
Gallente -> dampening

Neither of these can be good at their eWar-thing while also having a ton of ehp. Everyone wins.

I'm all about improving the Amarr Scout, but an AM Scout with long range scans and massive tank potential would be OP; it would only serve to shift 'assault lite' from one scout frame to another (rather than to the actual assault frame).

The CA Scout scans are too strong at 15 dB; they exert an imbalanced degree of pressure on non-GA Scouts and afford their squadmates an imbalanced benefit. There are no "waves of opportunity" in terms of beating these scans; you're either a GA Scout or your scanned.

Trading roles with Amarr fixes the problem without breaking either, and opens up opporunity for each of four Scouts to become competitive.

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Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3576	Posted - 2014.07.11 07:37:00 - [1] - Quote Could the suit instead get a bonus to Range Amplification because with just two high slots we won't actually be able to utilize the role of "The Hunter" I guess you could say as good as the Caldari Scout. Though some may disagree there's a trend that all scouts have and that's either pick Ewar or Tankability. All scouts give up their main tank for increased Ewar and I think that's by far a good trade off, and as you can see with some recent post the Amarr scout is "again " the odd ball of the scouts. With just 2 complex precision enhancers the Amarr scout can see scouts with less than 2 complex damps. And with the Gal scout being the Damp king and all it can easily escape with 2 more slots left for tank ( A known issue among scouts). Plus it just seems right for the Caldari to be the thorn in the gallente's side. But if you consider that you'd also might as well tank the range bonus away from all scouts but the Amarr.... >_> Let the debate begin. Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 6055	Posted - 2014.07.11 08:00:00 - [2] - Quote I haven't delved too far into the conversation because I'm sure it's going on somewhere that I don't feel like digging for it but long story short: if the Cal loses it's precision, the Amarr only has 2 high slots which limits the amount of precision it can have. By lowering the max precision a hunter scout can have you're indirectly buffing the gal scout some more. Yay! More free low slots aka armor for those invisible gal scouts! :D But what do I know? I'm just like a dude who can see the future of the meta. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2417	Posted - 2014.07.11 08:06:00 - [3] - Quote I guess they will adjust base stats and give to the Amarr less range and more precision. At least, i hope they will adjust base stats, it would be a step in the right direction. This is my plan: + = better - = worse * = medium value Amarr + precision - range * profile Gallente + profile - precision * range Caldari + range - profile * precision Minmatar * range * profile * precision PSN: ogamega I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3583	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:17:00 - [4] - Quote Bumb Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 289	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:41:00 - [5] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: ... if the Cal loses it's precision, the Amarr only has 2 high slots which limits the amount of precision it can have. By lowering the max precision a hunter scout can have you're indirectly buffing the gal scout some more. Yay! More free low slots aka armor for those invisible gal scouts! :D But what do I know? I'm just like a dude who can see the future of the meta. Who's talking about the Caldari scout losing precision? Rattati says the Amarr will gain precision. He also says the Cal scout will remain as the long range hunter scout. There is no mention of any changes to the Cal scout precision bonus. Please say it isn't so? Don't change too many variables at the same time! Basic science. Desperate attempt to get BPOs
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2643	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:45:00 - [6] - Quote Over the past month, the Scout Community has been working hard to resolve what we consider to be the frame's biggest problems: 1) Under performance of MN and AM Scouts 2) Over performance of GA and CA Scouts 3) FoTM Assault Scouts outperforming Assault Frames 4) CA Scout scans exerting too much pressure on non-GA Scouts We've covered at length many of the points raised in this thread and many, many others. Long story short, the majority of Old Scouts favor Rattati's proposed change. It isn't perfect, but we believe it to be better than many alternatives, and we believe it to be a step toward better interplay among all four Scouts (rather than just the current two). You guys really should swing by the Barbershop and read the past 20 or 30 pages. You'll find lots of good (often differing) perspectives on these points from a variety of career-long Scouts, not a single one of whom wishes to prolong/protect the Scout's current FoTM status. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2643	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:49:00 - [7] - Quote sabre prime wrote: Please say it isn't so? Don't change too many variables at the same time! Basic science. Moody's correct. EWAR specialization is currently the realm of CA and GA. Rattati's looking to spread it out over three: AM - Precision GA - Profile CA - Range Eventually, we hope he'll point these specializations toward their respective EWAR modules as a means of further discouraging FoTM tanky Scouts. In essence, it appears he wishes to do away with Assault Lite, and he has the Scout Community's support in doing so. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 668	Posted - 2014.07.11 15:55:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Eventually, we hope he'll point these specializations toward their respective EWAR modules as a means of further discouraging FoTM tanky Scouts. In essence, it appears he wishes to do away with Assault Lite, and he has the Scout Community's support in doing so. I really want range, precision and dampening to be separate roles. But I also want eWar to stay something that is in conflict with tanking, rather than being something you also put on your light assault suit additionally. What speaks against this model: Caldari -> precision Amarr -> range Gallente -> dampening Neither of these can be good at their eWar-thing while also having a ton of ehp. Everyone wins.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2643	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:30:00 - [9] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Eventually, we hope he'll point these specializations toward their respective EWAR modules as a means of further discouraging FoTM tanky Scouts. In essence, it appears he wishes to do away with Assault Lite, and he has the Scout Community's support in doing so. I really want range, precision and dampening to be separate roles. But I also want eWar to stay something that is in conflict with tanking, rather than being something you also put on your light assault suit additionally. What speaks against this model: Caldari -> precision Amarr -> range Gallente -> dampening Neither of these can be good at their eWar-thing while also having a ton of ehp. Everyone wins. I'm all about improving the Amarr Scout, but an AM Scout with long range scans and massive tank potential would be OP; it would only serve to shift 'assault lite' from one scout frame to another (rather than to the actual assault frame). The CA Scout scans are too strong at 15 dB; they exert an imbalanced degree of pressure on non-GA Scouts and afford their squadmates an imbalanced benefit. There are no "waves of opportunity" in terms of beating these scans; you're either a GA Scout or your scanned. Trading roles with Amarr fixes the problem without breaking either, and opens up opporunity for each of four Scouts to become competitive. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3585	Posted - 2014.07.11 16:56:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Eventually, we hope he'll point these specializations toward their respective EWAR modules as a means of further discouraging FoTM tanky Scouts. In essence, it appears he wishes to do away with Assault Lite, and he has the Scout Community's support in doing so. I really want range, precision and dampening to be separate roles. But I also want eWar to stay something that is in conflict with tanking, rather than being something you also put on your light assault suit additionally. What speaks against this model: Caldari -> precision Amarr -> range Gallente -> dampening Neither of these can be good at their eWar-thing while also having a ton of ehp. Everyone wins. I'm all about improving the Amarr Scout, but an AM Scout with long range scans and massive tank potential would be OP; it would only serve to shift 'assault lite' from one scout frame to another (rather than to the actual assault frame). The CA Scout scans are too strong at 15 dB; they exert an imbalanced degree of pressure on non-GA Scouts and afford their squadmates an imbalanced benefit. There are no "waves of opportunity" in terms of beating these scans; you're either a GA Scout or your scanned. Trading roles with Amarr fixes the problem without breaking either, and opens up opporunity for each of four Scouts to become competitive. Range amps are in the low slots so I'd be affecting the Scouts tank not increasing it. Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 2644	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:01:00 - [11] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: P.s. squad share should be abolished Absolutely agreed. That'd change everything. Rattati looked into it already; seems unlikely :-( Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 668	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:27:00 - [12] - Quote I'm really curious how the logic works under the new scheme. So please help me understand. Imagine I'm fitting my Amarr Scout. I'm good at precision. So let's build on that and add two more precision enhancers. I'm now the most potent scanning platform under the sun because I think a quadruple precision enhanced CalScout has too high fitting penalties. Now on top of that stack 4 scan range extenders and follow a squad of 4 heavies and a logi around, granting each of my mates close to 100 meters of passive scan range. Yes, a GalScout with two dampeners will not get scanned. But a squad of 6 GalScouts with two dampeners each will not last long against 4 heavies. I'd much rather keep the precision bonus at the CalScout and then reduce scan range to pre-1.8 numbers. A max-eWar CalScout would then cast his magic at up to 45 meters while not being dampened at all. Anyone with a rail rifle can counter that. A max-eWar AmarrScout would be countered by a GalScout due to the lack of scan precision. A max-eWar GalScout would be countered by Assault suits due to the lack of scan range (22.5 meters at pre-1.8 numbers). Is my logic completely wrong here? I'd really like to know why my opinion is so different to everyone else's.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3586	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:30:00 - [13] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I'm really curious how the logic works under the new scheme. So please help me understand. Imagine I'm fitting my Amarr Scout. I'm good at precision. So let's build on that and add two more precision enhancers. I'm now the most potent scanning platform under the sun because I think a quadruple precision enhanced CalScout has too high fitting penalties. Now on top of that stack 4 scan range extenders and follow a squad of 4 heavies and a logi around, granting each of my mates close to 100 meters of passive scan range. Yes, a GalScout with two dampeners will not get scanned. But a squad of 6 GalScouts with two dampeners each will not last long against 4 heavies. I'd much rather keep the precision bonus at the CalScout and then reduce scan range to pre-1.8 numbers. A max-eWar CalScout would then cast his magic at up to 45 meters while not being dampened at all. Anyone with a rail rifle can counter that. A max-eWar AmarrScout would be countered by a GalScout due to the lack of scan precision. A max-eWar GalScout would be countered by Assault suits due to the lack of scan range (22.5 meters at pre-1.8 numbers). Is my logic completely wrong here? I'd really like to know why my opinion is so different to everyone else's. Well we're pretty much thinking the same thing. Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 6076	Posted - 2014.07.11 17:51:00 - [14] - Quote Actually a squad of 6 gal shotgun scouts would slaughter that group of heavies. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 165	Posted - 2014.07.11 18:52:00 - [15] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Actually a squad of 6 gal shotgun scouts would slaughter that group of heavies. Would they? Don't forget the scout and logi as well. Would it be a slaughter or a fair fight? I wouldn't count the heavies out so quickly. Edit, ok, maybe not completely fair as one of the suits is countered by the whole enemy squad, making it more like 6v5. But I wouldn't say it would be a slaughter.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3591	Posted - 2014.07.11 21:50:00 - [16] - Quote Anyone? Run, hide in fear while you can for the Amarr Scout is on the hunt! The eyes of God compelles you!!!


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