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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14557
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Posted - 2014.07.10 01:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Where ADS pilots and gunners can co exist in harmony without abusing bugged mechanics to feel relevant.
Currently, fitting side turrets is far too taxing for a standard build, which is why most people will only do so if they're abusing the bugged pilot stacking mechanic. This, clearly, was never intended. However, it seems that it WAS indeed intended to have side guns. So, what's an easy fix?
Once Pilot stacking has been addressed in 2024 with the next client side patch, I propose an addition to the Assault Dropship Operation skill:
15% reduction to the PGU/CPU fitting cost of side turrets per level, to a maximum of 75% reduction. In addition, a very small buff to PGU/CPU of assault dropships.
These ships are intended to rain hell down upon the battlefield, but without the added (read: bugged) DPS of pilot stacking, there is very little incentive to risk your more expensive ship to do so. This would reward pilots who invest in the ADS skill while not buffing solo players who refuse to fit side turrets in order to have cheaper fits.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14559
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Posted - 2014.07.10 05:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
I guess Im just used to my Incubus, particularly now, where if I sit still for even a moment I'm just a fireball waiting to happen. I have no bonus to missiles, and both blasters and rails are laughable vs infantry if you so much as wiggle your ship around.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14559
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Posted - 2014.07.10 06:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
XxGhazbaranxX wrote:Side gunners will fall out of relevance. The fitting costs and hit to defense will not account for an extra gunner and the necessary flight style to have effective gunners.
Bug or no bug; side guns on ADS will now be a huge Fail. Anyone can say it's a bug but the stacking existed even before the vehicle changes, the only thing that didn't exist was the Assault dropship/gal/cal bonus.
Good luck being relevant against tanks, good luck being relevant against other dropships and for all you gunners out there, good luck finding a pilot crazy enough to actually want to gimp himself just to have you.
Fiend: good luck getting CCP to change anything for fitting costs in ADS. It's not feesable and it will corrupt balance. The current bonuses are too strong to warrant another bonus to ADS. It's either keep the bonuses we have or sacrifice those for the fittings bonuses you are requesting. By lobbying for a fix for a bug that actually wasn't a bug pre vehicle changes, and something that actually wasn't detrimental to gameplay since there was rarely anyone that actually spent the SP just to get ADS level 5 and they were only encountered every other match, people just destroyed the only good thing to having a gunner in an ADS.
I don't see what all the fuss is about, I deal damage just fine to tanks and dropships with just normal bonuses for my front gun. Using a glitch always just felt like a crutch to me. Alternatively to giving ADS a fitting bonus to small turrets, they could just make small turrets not cost so damn much, like they used to.
Side guns with normal bonuses will be fine, the advantage to having gunners was always supposed to be added awareness and coverage, not unrealistic additive bonuses.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14559
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 07:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mauren NOON wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Where ADS pilots and gunners can co exist in harmony without abusing bugged mechanics to feel relevant.
Currently, fitting side turrets is far too taxing for a standard build, which is why most people will only do so if they're abusing the bugged pilot stacking mechanic. This, clearly, was never intended. However, it seems that it WAS indeed intended to have side guns. So, what's an easy fix?
Once Pilot stacking has been addressed in 2024 with the next client side patch, I propose an addition to the Assault Dropship Operation skill:
15% reduction to the PGU/CPU fitting cost of side turrets per level, to a maximum of 75% reduction. In addition, a very small buff to PGU/CPU of assault dropships.
These ships are intended to rain hell down upon the battlefield, but without the added (read: bugged) DPS of pilot stacking, there is very little incentive to risk your more expensive ship to do so. This would reward pilots who invest in the ADS skill while not buffing solo players who refuse to fit side turrets in order to have cheaper fits. Seems like you want a bonus that helps incubus with missles...Obvious missle incubus pilot is obvious
I'm probably one of the best railgun pilots in the game.
I'm not exactly sure how having reduced fitting to side turrets is a missile bonus....
Obvious troll is obvious....
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14559
|
Posted - 2014.07.10 08:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:[You are? neat I wonder where that puts me on the rankings :)
All I know is I've never once lost a railgun duel, my shots are always on mark, I've gone over 20 kills vs infantry with it in a number of matches, and I can keep on target even with the enemy ship flying above me :)
I also get plenty of mail complimenting my railgunning from all sorts of players, though maybe that's just cuz of my youtube lol.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14560
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Posted - 2014.07.10 14:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:I like the stacking "bug"
To me it makes sense that a player can "skill into" turrets and be even more effective.
It provides incentive for a vehicle to have small turrets when they actually become useful...like they are now with the stacking "bug"
Turrets are plenty useful without the bug. Without it, a pilot has to actually use his skill to maintain and track the target. Right now, almost every vehicle will die to a single pass from either maxed bugged turret. It dissolves the need for player skill and encourages cheap hit and run tactics because you can straight up destroy almost everything with a single pass.
It encourages less skilled players by making sure they have to stay on target less, and stay in the hot zone for shorter periods of time. It makes no sense for a turret to be pushed past its maximum capabilities just because someone else who has the same knowledge as you is manning them.
If they wanted to add in gunner specific skills that could be an idea, but adding RoF and Damage is a huge no no, and only promotes abuse.
Oh, and the "bug" is in fact a bug, as confirmed by CCP Rattati.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14600
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Posted - 2014.07.14 13:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Maximus Stryker wrote:I like the stacking "bug"
To me it makes sense that a player can "skill into" turrets and be even more effective.
It provides incentive for a vehicle to have small turrets when they actually become useful...like they are now with the stacking "bug"
Turrets are plenty useful without the bug. Without it, a pilot has to actually use his skill to maintain and track the target. Right now, almost every vehicle will die to a single pass from either maxed bugged turret. It dissolves the need for player skill and encourages cheap hit and run tactics because you can straight up destroy almost everything with a single pass. It encourages less skilled players by making sure they have to stay on target less, and stay in the hot zone for shorter periods of time. It makes no sense for a turret to be pushed past its maximum capabilities just because someone else who has the same knowledge as you is manning them. If they wanted to add in gunner specific skills that could be an idea, but adding RoF and Damage is a huge no no, and only promotes abuse. Oh, and the "bug" is in fact a bug, as confirmed by CCP Rattati. yea, I hear ya and can mostly agree I simply like how with the way it currently is, it is an asset to have a gunner with "skills" in being a more effective gunner...that's some perspective, yes it may be "OP" but keep in mind that to do it properly, it takes coordination between multiple players as well at the SP sunk into those skills. A person cannot just jump on and "abuse" a mechanic/bug; it takes thought, SP investment and actually needs to me done simultaneously in game with those people who invested the thought, time and SP
Except that you shouldn't be skilling into pilot skills just to gun, and to push a gun past its intended capabilities. Amusingly, the bug makes it take LESS coordination and teamwork because of how quickly it kills, so the pilot needs to pay less attention to his surroundings, and the gunner needs to stay on target less.
Basically it just makes things easier for both players, reducing the amount of teamwork between them. The real issue is that small turrets were made too expensive in their fitting cost, so no one wants to fit them on tanks or dropships because they cut into your EHP too much. Thanks to the bug, the EHP loss isn't nearly as noticeable because you don't have to actually sit around in the hotzone as long for your gunners to get kills, since they're killing at an unreasonable rate.
Turret bonuses should be capped at their intended cap, and thankfully it would appear that CCP Rattati agrees.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14603
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Posted - 2014.07.14 19:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:I guess Im just used to my Incubus, particularly now, where if I sit still for even a moment I'm just a fireball waiting to happen. I have no bonus to missiles, and both blasters and rails are laughable vs infantry if you so much as wiggle your ship around. Have you tried having two ginners with missiles and keeping a rail fit for your pilot gun?
No, because that would just be a god awful fit. Railgun requires me to be pretty precise and all up in vehicles grills, and my side missiles would only add marginal support while engaging enemy vehicles. Since you have to sit generally still for side missiles to be useful vs infantry (considering no RoF bonus), the slower, easier to hit incubus that takes bonus damage from everything under the sun would just be that much easier to send up in flames if I sat around trying to give my gunners shots while I twiddled my thumbs waiting for a target to appear for my rail.
So while I hunt vehicles with my rail, I'd be wasting two slots for my team with people just sitting in my guns staring at the sky, occasionally landing a hit on the enemy vehicle, but overall not contributing anything meaningful to my AV experience, while vastly reducing the EHP of my already rather vulnerable Incubus. It takes an Incubus significantly longer to accelerate up and away from a hover even with an AB than a Python with no AB does. Also, bonus damage, and the fact that the Incubus weak spot is more pronounced.
It's just all around better to use a front missile and switch to a front rail if vehicle presence is strong. On the rare occasions I bother with a side gun, I always equip a militia missile turret for myself and give my single gunner a rail, since blasters are still a joke.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14604
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Posted - 2014.07.15 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:I was meaning more for anti infantry, I bet some good gunners would be able to do a decent job at suppression. I'm hearing your concerns tho, have you tried having some shock troopers in your ship to jump out and engage enemy av?
Honestly ever since I decided to fully skill into the coffins that were Prometheus's, I've given up on team based DS play. I can never find people that want to just sit in my ship and fly around, and picking people up in an Incubus is just death half the time. You just can't get out fast enough and if you get hit by AV while down low, it's so much harder to recover. The maps are too small for it to really matter anyways.
On the off chance I run a side turret I usually just have them hop out, hack a point while I circle the area, then I pick them up as quick as I can and get out, but that's usually how I die. I don't even play anymore, this is just a bug that I've always despised with a passion, so seeing Rattati confirm it as a bug just tickled me pink is all.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14604
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Posted - 2014.07.15 02:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Pvt Numnutz wrote:I was meaning more for anti infantry, I bet some good gunners would be able to do a decent job at suppression. I'm hearing your concerns tho, have you tried having some shock troopers in your ship to jump out and engage enemy av? Honestly ever since I decided to fully skill into the coffins that were Prometheus's, I've given up on team based DS play. I can never find people that want to just sit in my ship and fly around, and picking people up in an Incubus is just death half the time. You just can't get out fast enough and if you get hit by AV while down low, it's so much harder to recover. The maps are too small for it to really matter anyways. On the off chance I run a side turret I usually just have them hop out, hack a point while I circle the area, then I pick them up as quick as I can and get out, but that's usually how I die. I don't even play anymore, this is just a bug that I've always despised with a passion, so seeing Rattati confirm it as a bug just tickled me pink is all. Then your missing out on what makes dropships so much fun. Picking people up is always hard for any dropship. You have to have good shock troops to pull it off, and shouldn't have people just sitting in your dropship. Some maps are too small, on those I don't bother flying but the larger maps can still work and is quite fun when you do good drops. I can't fly solo anymore, its too boring and lonley. If you don't play anymore why post? I wish people who didn't play anymore wouldn't suggest things, they are effecting a game that they don't even play.
Just because I don't play now doesn't mean I haven't played more than my fair share in the past, a broken bug is a broken bug regardless of whether or not I currently play.
I'm a solo player. I don't like people. Socializing is gross. I'm sorry that my play style doesn't appeal to you, I like to blast music and not deal with other people while I fly around a pew pew.
And as stated, it's not like I didn't try to be a team player. I took my Uprising respec and MAXED all relevant Prometheus skills, and blew almost 100 million ISK in a very short period of time doing everything I could to make them work against actual competition. They were a death trap, and CCP has no idea how to make team oriented vehicles. Incubus isn't geared towards team play without abusing the bug, and I don't abuse bugs, even if I wasn't a solo player. You simply don't have the tank to hover around for your gunners (again, why use missiles on a blaster / rail boat), especially considering almost all forms of AV do huge amounts of bonus damage to armor, and you lack the speed and mobility go from a hover to GTFO mode like a python does.
Python is the vastly superior ship at every single thing other than accidentally bumping into things, and killing Pythons.
Caldari master race.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14604
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Posted - 2014.07.15 04:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
Beld Errmon wrote:I think its a shame more ADS pilots are not in favour of buffing the generic dropships and giving them skills focused towards being tough transports and shooting platforms, it would make them relevant on the battlefield for more than just dropping uplinks at the start of a match, for people that love air to air combat they get something to shoot at, for people that love the teamwork of working with a dropship crew they get a craft more suited to the role without exploiting a bug.
I'm still butthurt about logi dropships. What you described is the logi dropship, or what it was supposed to be anyways.
Main reason I'm not in favor of buffing standard ships is: very small SP investment, buffed suicide dropships.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14604
|
Posted - 2014.07.15 04:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Beld Errmon wrote:I think its a shame more ADS pilots are not in favour of buffing the generic dropships and giving them skills focused towards being tough transports and shooting platforms, it would make them relevant on the battlefield for more than just dropping uplinks at the start of a match, for people that love air to air combat they get something to shoot at, for people that love the teamwork of working with a dropship crew they get a craft more suited to the role without exploiting a bug. I'm still butthurt about logi dropships. What you described is the logi dropship, or what it was supposed to be anyways. Main reason I'm not in favor of buffing standard ships is: very small SP investment, buffed suicide dropships. Logi DS was never supposed to be a Gun platform. It should have been a repair and resupply vehicle.
Except it had the potential to fit a massive tank, and was really slow, which lent to it being a gun platform for your side gunners. Repair and resupply would have been nice but clearly CCP didn't want anything to do with that, so going more with what they ACTUALLY gave us, yes, it was more of a mobile gun platform / reinforcement unit.
The Future
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DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
14605
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Posted - 2014.07.15 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
The dark cloud wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:Where ADS pilots and gunners can co exist in harmony without abusing bugged mechanics to feel relevant.
Currently, fitting side turrets is far too taxing for a standard build, which is why most people will only do so if they're abusing the bugged pilot stacking mechanic. This, clearly, was never intended. However, it seems that it WAS indeed intended to have side guns. So, what's an easy fix?
Once Pilot stacking has been addressed in 2024 with the next client side patch, I propose an addition to the Assault Dropship Operation skill:
15% reduction to the PGU/CPU fitting cost of side turrets per level, to a maximum of 75% reduction. In addition, a very small buff to PGU/CPU of assault dropships.
These ships are intended to rain hell down upon the battlefield, but without the added (read: bugged) DPS of pilot stacking, there is very little incentive to risk your more expensive ship to do so. This would reward pilots who invest in the ADS skill while not buffing solo players who refuse to fit side turrets in order to have cheaper fits. HELL NO. I dont want flying tanks with 5000HP on armor. And there are allready fitting optimisation skills. -Small turret operation: 2% less PG+CPU per lvl -small turret fitting optimisation: 3% less PG+CPU per lvl So now lets have a look what you just proposed: 75% from the ADS skillbook+10% small+15% optimastion= 100% fitting reduction on a ADS. You just want to have a brick tanked dropship and 3 guns on it which each will require 0PG+CPU. And people call skill stacking broken.
Actually all I want is skill stacking removed.
Reducing the fitting cost of small turrets in general would be nice too. I just tossed this together in response to the good news that the bug is a bug, and to drum up some conversation. 5% off per level would be fine too.
The Future
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