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Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
856
   |
Posted - 2014.07.06 05:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Jathniel, you can complain that people are mentioning the redline all you like but it is still relevant. If you do a direct buff to snipers, you also directly buff redline sniping.
If snipers could be forced out of the redline I'd quite happily support some buffing. Nothing like some of the absurd buffs I've seen suggested in the past (820 damage per shot from a charge sniper rifle is not reasonable) but some moderate buffs would be worth considering.
I have a question for you... Where on any of the maps can a sniper get a view of further than 120m with a target point wider than 5m?
I have yet to see a single map that actually allows snipers to play anywhere other than the hills.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
|
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
856
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 05:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Jathniel, you can complain that people are mentioning the redline all you like but it is still relevant. If you do a direct buff to snipers, you also directly buff redline sniping.
If snipers could be forced out of the redline I'd quite happily support some buffing. Nothing like some of the absurd buffs I've seen suggested in the past (820 damage per shot from a charge sniper rifle is not reasonable) but some moderate buffs would be worth considering. I have a question for you... Where on any of the maps can a sniper get a view of further than 120m with a target point wider than 5m? I have yet to see a single map that actually allows snipers to play anywhere other than the hills. Lolz, then you are not being creative, hell go to Manus Peaks and sit anywhere. You can shoot anywhere. Perhaps you could set on a specific place on any map and cover the objective, any objective. Some maps are not best suited for sniping, and Manus Peaks is not great for heavies either. I refuse to admit that balance of a class is based on full time use of tbat class. Many noobs have not figured out yet in dust, its about having many fits in your closet, sniping is one fit that can work sometimes, on somemaps, but if you are the guy saying well im just going to sit here and snipe the whole time im playing dust then you are playing this game to lose.
Aaaand I get a reply from a user who didn't actually read what I wrote. Not surprising. Also, you referenced the map where everyone basically stays inside of a large node the entire time. You sit on that hill you're gonna get diddly squit. Plus you are referring to a SINGLE point on only ONE map and calling it good?
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
|
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
856
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 21:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Atiim wrote:Let me break it down for you: Snipers
- Caldari Commando V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Engineering III
- Dropsuit Electronics III
- Profile Dampening V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Drop Uplink Deployment V
- Systems Hacking V
- Sniper Rifle Operation V
- Sniper Rifle Proficiency V
- Sniper Rifle Ammo Capacity V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 13,562,300 SP
Assault
- Assault Dropsuit V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades III
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Primary HP Module V
- Primary HP Support Module V
- Secondary HP Module V
- Active Scanner Operation V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Grenadier V
- Primary Weapon V
- Primary Weapon Proficiency V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 11,559,980
This is a ridiculously terrible comparison. Show me the assault who has prof 5 in their weapon but doesn't have any electronics or engineering skills. Snipers don't train systems hacking 5. Nor do they really train profile dampening if they've gone Calmando - a complex dampener won't bring profile down enough to evade anything but the most rudimentary scans. A sniper isn't going to train level 5 ammo capacity if carrying proto hives. "But what if he's carrying uplinks?" An assault is almost as likely to be carrying uplinks and is likely to burn through ammo much quicker.
Hacking? Everyone who wants to use a point does hacking, most often active snipers will be found around the objectives...
Profile dampening is almost indispensable... It helps you from appearing when someone hastily passes their vision over your location. More often than not, this will save your character. :/ Scanners are pointless if you are actually sniping, they get your scan, then move away from the location. Visual ID is a much more deadly venue.
Drop uplink... Many snipers will place an uplink on a desired location, so if they are killed, they can come back to the spot quickly. Such as the top of a tower etc...
I can tell from your responses, that you don't have much awareness of the field around you... You respond quickly without even trying to think of a reason that one might use something or another.
I can also clearly tell that you have never done sniping. I can tell you that from basic to Proto, there is only 20 hp difference in damage (10 per tier) DPS is around 100-110 for snipers, while assaults have what? 300-400 DPS (can't remember accurately, but that is close), not to mention that at range, you can miss a target directly in the center of your crosshairs, that is NOT moving due to buggy projectile pathing. Also, targets that are running can literally teleport across the region your bullet enters because of server latency not registering the body between two points.
It's not uncommon to empty an entire inventory of bullets and wind up with only 4 or 5 kills tops before having to nanohive back to maximum. Assaults on the other hand can get 2 or so kills per reload, making 12-15 kills per nano very viable.
If we were to reduce all assault weapons down to the efficiency of sniper rifles, I have no doubt in my mind that you would complain almost every time you logged on, and might even possibly quit the game.
It is a fact in this game that accuracy and skill weapons do FAR LESS damage than spray and pray guns, meaning skill is being sidelined for automated fire.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
|
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
857
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 21:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
aaaasdff ertgfdd wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Atiim wrote:Let me break it down for you: Snipers
- Caldari Commando V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Engineering III
- Dropsuit Electronics III
- Profile Dampening V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Drop Uplink Deployment V
- Systems Hacking V
- Sniper Rifle Operation V
- Sniper Rifle Proficiency V
- Sniper Rifle Ammo Capacity V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 13,562,300 SP
Assault
- Assault Dropsuit V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades III
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Primary HP Module V
- Primary HP Support Module V
- Secondary HP Module V
- Active Scanner Operation V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Grenadier V
- Primary Weapon V
- Primary Weapon Proficiency V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 11,559,980
This is a ridiculously terrible comparison. Show me the assault who has prof 5 in their weapon but doesn't have any electronics or engineering skills. Snipers don't train systems hacking 5. Nor do they really train profile dampening if they've gone Calmando - a complex dampener won't bring profile down enough to evade anything but the most rudimentary scans. A sniper isn't going to train level 5 ammo capacity if carrying proto hives. "But what if he's carrying uplinks?" An assault is almost as likely to be carrying uplinks and is likely to burn through ammo much quicker. Hacking? Everyone who wants to use a point does hacking, most often active snipers will be found around the objectives... Profile dampening is almost indispensable... It helps you from appearing when someone hastily passes their vision over your location. More often than not, this will save your character. :/ Scanners are pointless if you are actually sniping, they get your scan, then move away from the location. Visual ID is a much more deadly venue. Drop uplink... Many snipers will place an uplink on a desired location, so if they are killed, they can come back to the spot quickly. Such as the top of a tower etc... I can tell from your responses, that you don't have much awareness of the field around you... You respond quickly without even trying to think of a reason that one might use something or another. I can also clearly tell that you have never done sniping. I can tell you that from basic to Proto, there is only 20 hp difference in damage (10 per tier) DPS is around 100-110 for snipers, while assaults have what? 300-400 DPS (can't remember accurately, but that is close), not to mention that at range, you can miss a target directly in the center of your crosshairs, that is NOT moving due to buggy projectile pathing. Also, targets that are running can literally teleport across the region your bullet enters because of server latency not registering the body between two points. It's not uncommon to empty an entire inventory of bullets and wind up with only 4 or 5 kills tops before having to nanohive back to maximum. Assaults on the other hand can get 2 or so kills per reload, making 12-15 kills per nano very viable. If we were to reduce all assault weapons down to the efficiency of sniper rifles, I have no doubt in my mind that you would complain almost every time you logged on, and might even possibly quit the game. It is a fact in this game that accuracy and skill weapons do FAR LESS damage than spray and pray guns, meaning skill is being sidelined for automated fire. Look you crying a$$ noob, all that **** you are talking about we deal with also. Bullets not registering, bad hit, detection etc, etc. The diffrence is we are boots on the ground in the fight risking life and isk, and while we are fighting we are not kneelimg down on some high tower. We are dodging enemy fire that may or may not register, side stepping grenades, strafing back and forth, looking for the other guy we dont see, trying not to get ran over by lavs, shot by tanks, or killed by some noob sniper in the redline. You are not in the fight if you are a sniper, you are a spectator that can disproportionately affect the outcome of the battle between my self and someone else with little to no risk involved. Get off the redline, get off the sniper tit, get in the fight and get good.
I am dual...tri... quad... whatever the hell.. role specced. The only things I don't have an investment in at this point are scout suits, Assault Dropships and shotguns.
I can confidently tell you that you are complaining about spilled milk. Hit failures at 70m or less are insanely miniscule. Tanks have such horrible spread now i can run and literally frolic in front of them for a good 20 seconds before they can kill me. More than enough time to swarm them to death. LAV's are easy as peach to dodge unless you aren't paying attention to their trajectory... strafing at close range is easily countered by bullet spam, only scout suits strafe fast enough to avoid damage moving through the bullet streams. (hence the reason I don't use them because that is obviously broken)
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
|
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
858
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 23:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:
Hacking? Everyone who wants to use a point does hacking, most often active snipers will be found around the objectives...
A sniper is much less likely to be found on the objective than an assault is. An assault is much more likely to want to hack that point and be in a position to do so. It's stupid, then, to assume that a sniper will want maxed out hacking skills and assaults won't. Profile dampeners have no effect on how easily you get tagged by someone looking at you. If someone looks directly at you, puts their crosshairs on you, you are tagged on their TACnet. It doesn't matter how many profile dampeners you put on, the only thing that will save you from that effect is a cloak. If you're using a Calmando, the only thing a complex profile dampener will save you from is a standard active scanner, or the passive scan of a heavy. If you're at the point where you're worrying about getting passively scanned by heavies you are doing something horrendously wrong.
Next time you load into a game, you might want to look at the people deploying around you. You can tell who has dampeners on because their blue chevrons disappear before others who are further out. This is the same thing with someone looking in. They then have to actively pass the center of the reticule over you to get you to light up.
- I had assumed you had more general knowledge of dampening, but I was apparently mistaken.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Sure. Many assaults will also carry uplinks or another equipment item. It's hideously biased to assume that the only equipment an assault will ever use is a nanohive.
May I remind you of your statement that a sniper wouldnGÇÖt need uplink skills.
I can also tell that you have a reduced ability to separate out different conversations, and reasons for those conversations, due to the heavilyGǪ strange response below, complete with a self-depreciating header?
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Oh boy, it's the classic 'waaah you didnt agree with evrything i belive in' response.
I can tell from your response that you are a terribly biased sniper. Just as biased as some of the people in here bitching that snipers should never be viable.
All I said was that the projected skill comparison was flawed. It was.
Despite a simple factual correction, you went off on a long rant about how I'm clearly a biased assault player.
Your assertion that you can 'clearly tell that I've never done sniping' is so wrong I almost laughed at it. I have proficiency 4 sniper rifles. I use snipers several times a week. I am aware that they are not viable.
Whining about how the damage only marginally goes up between tiers is laughable. That's exactly the case for every weapon. There is no weapon which jumps more than about 10% in damage from standard to proto.
Now, if you're going to ask why your sniper rifle isn't doing the same DPS as an assault rifle, I have a question for you.
Why doesn't a rifle do as much damage as a shotgun?
Because of the range. If shotguns did the same damage as an assault rifle despite having point blank range, it would be unbalanced.
The range of the sniper rifle is a huge advantage. Obviously. That's what it's for. What do you want, the sniper to do as much damage as a shotgun?
If you're emptying your entire inventory of bullets for 4-5 kills, you're bad. As someone who allegedly 'never snipes', I can quite easily get more than that and do so regularly.
First thing I must mention, is where did I say the sniper needs to have the same damage as the shotgun, or as my example brought up, the assault rifle? I made no such claim. I was stating that the damage scaling is incorrect for snipers.
Apparently, the size of the target, window of opportunity, and speed of the target have no value for weighting damage in regards to balance? Those are rather major points to overlook.
Having skill in the sniper tree does not mean that one knows how to use the sniper. Sitting around like a lump on a hill does not mean you know how to snipe, it means you know how to pull the trigger of the sniper.
Do you even know of any points on the map that one can snipe from aside from the hills?
Have you ever weaved your way around a line of assaults to get a better firing angle at the rear of their attack?
Have you ever actually covered a point, then went in to counter-hack it when someone breaks through?
Do you know the optimum ranges of mobile sniping?
I highly doubt you could get such a score without a Proto scope, (which snipers donGÇÖt need in the least) with heavily stacked armor exploit fittings, or one of those lazy, damage amp only suits.
That's not sniping, that's being a lump.
--Continued Below--
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
|
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
858
|
Posted - 2014.07.06 23:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Continued due to being too long for one post.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
The sniper does not instantly kill things from half a kilometre away because it's a case of risk vs reward. The ability to sit back in the redline (and like it or not, that will be done) with a sniper and instasplat players at very little risk would be broken.
If we look at Jathniel here, someone debating this in a more civilised fashion (albeit still in an overly frustrated tone) instead of exploding at people in a pathetic manner, they're trying to make sensible suggestions on how to help the sniper become viable without going straight to the other extreme of being overpowered.
I snipe somewhat regularly. I do it as a relaxing activity and rarely get bothered by enemy players as I hide in a scout suit in places that aren't the centrepiece for firefights.
I do okay with it. But I see issues. It's not quite as good as it should be. It has too few mechanics supporting it to make it an interesting role. It has bugs associated with it, normally the kind of terrible hit detection bugs that are almost prehistoric.
It would be nice to see those fixed. With Rattati making actual sensible tweaks, there could be a real chance to make some good changes to help the role.
It's frustrating to me, then, to see trash posts from people like you who don't have any real concept of anything approaching a balanced system clogging up what a thread that could otherwise be something that could be shown to Rattati to ask for some moderate buffs.
I want to see snipers helped so they're a role which is viable and interesting. Not so that they're EZmode instakill machines that you can sit in the redline with which promptly get nerfed back into the dark ages never to be touched again. A reasonable case could be made to improve them.
Being so sensitive as to go off on a rant at the slightest sign of someone not completely agreeing with all the buffs ever does not help the cause.
I donGÇÖt expect you to have read anything from my posting history, but as I stand with sniping, the number of shots it takes for body impacts right now is at a decent level, IGÇÖve been pushing for armor and shield modules to have a downside that increases headshot damage.(possibly 1-2% per module?)
I canGÇÖt say itGÇÖs refreshing to see someone go on a blatant GÇ£hate rantGÇ¥ with no logical reason for the trigger, but that is what you just did. Please re-read the last line of the prior quote to yourself. O.o;
If youGÇÖve ever gone sniping with a regular sniper, and not one of those enhanced zoom handicaps (300 damage on the officer sniper is justGǪ horrible really) You would know that hitting a player in the head from a distance who is moving, is a rather difficult endeavor, and hitting a stationary target is much easier to line the shot up with. Hence, the changes I asked for regarding armor fittings. Such would bring down the value of tanking fittings a bit, and encourage a portion of fitting diversity.
http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU
Dust to Dust
Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
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