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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15176
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Posted - 2014.07.05 11:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jathniel, you can complain that people are mentioning the redline all you like but it is still relevant. If you do a direct buff to snipers, you also directly buff redline sniping.
If snipers could be forced out of the redline I'd quite happily support some buffing. Nothing like some of the absurd buffs I've seen suggested in the past (820 damage per shot from a charge sniper rifle is not reasonable) but some moderate buffs would be worth considering.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15181
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Posted - 2014.07.05 13:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Jathniel, you can complain that people are mentioning the redline all you like but it is still relevant. If you do a direct buff to snipers, you also directly buff redline sniping.
If snipers could be forced out of the redline I'd quite happily support some buffing. Nothing like some of the absurd buffs I've seen suggested in the past (820 damage per shot from a charge sniper rifle is not reasonable) but some moderate buffs would be worth considering. That's why I cut the range, Arkena. You've been here longer than the others that have posted, and I've seen your proposals before. What do you think of my percentages? I want Rattati to get something concrete.
I'm sorry, I must have missed your percentages.
I didn't see your suggestion to cut the range either. I did only skim the thread, though. Give me a sec, will have another look.
EDIT: Found it.
EDIT 2: Not bad. Will write a little more on it later. Some of the suggested changes are a little extreme (e.g. 6000 damage shots) but some of the suggestions are decent enough.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15182
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Posted - 2014.07.05 15:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Atiim wrote:TechMechMeds wrote:Cere harkens.
Sniping is one of the smallest if not the smallest sp sink as well. That actually belongs to the Assault Class.
No, it doesn't.
Sniping is not SP intensive at all. I'm quite sure assaults are more SP intensive.
That doesn't matter though. I've never liked arguments based on SP - by that argument, heavies and scouts are rightly OP, which isn't really sane.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15211
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Posted - 2014.07.06 09:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Let me break it down for you: Snipers
- Caldari Commando V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Engineering III
- Dropsuit Electronics III
- Profile Dampening V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Drop Uplink Deployment V
- Systems Hacking V
- Sniper Rifle Operation V
- Sniper Rifle Proficiency V
- Sniper Rifle Ammo Capacity V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 13,562,300 SP
Assault
- Assault Dropsuit V
- Handheld Weapon Upgrades III
- Dropsuit Armor Upgrades V
- Dropsuit Shield Upgrades V
- Primary HP Module V
- Primary HP Support Module V
- Secondary HP Module V
- Active Scanner Operation V
- Nanocircuitry V
- Grenadier V
- Primary Weapon V
- Primary Weapon Proficiency V
- Secondary Weapon V
- Secondary Weapon Proficiency I
Total: 11,559,980
This is a ridiculously terrible comparison. Show me the assault who has prof 5 in their weapon but doesn't have any electronics or engineering skills. Snipers don't train systems hacking 5. Nor do they really train profile dampening if they've gone Calmando - a complex dampener won't bring profile down enough to evade anything but the most rudimentary scans.
A sniper isn't going to train level 5 ammo capacity if carrying proto hives. "But what if he's carrying uplinks?" An assault is almost as likely to be carrying uplinks and is likely to burn through ammo much quicker.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15227
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Posted - 2014.07.06 22:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:
Hacking? Everyone who wants to use a point does hacking, most often active snipers will be found around the objectives...
A sniper is much less likely to be found on the objective than an assault is. An assault is much more likely to want to hack that point and be in a position to do so. It's stupid, then, to assume that a sniper will want maxed out hacking skills and assaults won't.
Quote:
Profile dampening is almost indispensable... It helps you from appearing when someone hastily passes their vision over your location. More often than not, this will save your character. :/ Scanners are pointless if you are actually sniping, they get your scan, then move away from the location. Visual ID is a much more deadly venue.
Profile dampeners have no effect on how easily you get tagged by someone looking at you. If someone looks directly at you, puts their crosshairs on you, you are tagged on their TACnet. It doesn't matter how many profile dampeners you put on, the only thing that will save you from that effect is a cloak.
If you're using a Calmando, the only thing a complex profile dampener will save you from is a standard active scanner, or the passive scan of a heavy. If you're at the point where you're worrying about getting passively scanned by heavies you are doing something horrendously wrong.
Quote:
Drop uplink... Many snipers will place an uplink on a desired location, so if they are killed, they can come back to the spot quickly. Such as the top of a tower etc...
Sure. Many assaults will also carry uplinks or another equipment item. It's hideously biased to assume that the only equipment an assault will ever use is a nanohive.
Quote:
-snip ranting and ignorant whining-
Oh boy, it's the classic 'waaah you didnt agree with evrything i belive in' response.
I can tell from your response that you are a terribly biased sniper. Just as biased as some of the people in here bitching that snipers should never be viable.
All I said was that the projected skill comparison was flawed. It was.
Despite a simple factual correction, you went off on a long rant about how I'm clearly a biased assault player.
Your assertion that you can 'clearly tell that I've never done sniping' is so wrong I almost laughed at it. I have proficiency 4 sniper rifles. I use snipers several times a week. I am aware that they are not viable.
Whining about how the damage only marginally goes up between tiers is laughable. That's exactly the case for every weapon. There is no weapon which jumps more than about 10% in damage from standard to proto.
Now, if you're going to ask why your sniper rifle isn't doing the same DPS as an assault rifle, I have a question for you.
Why doesn't a rifle do as much damage as a shotgun?
Because of the range. If shotguns did the same damage as an assault rifle despite having point blank range, it would be unbalanced.
The range of the sniper rifle is a huge advantage. Obviously. That's what it's for. What do you want, the sniper to do as much damage as a shotgun?
If you're emptying your entire inventory of bullets for 4-5 kills, you're bad. As someone who allegedly 'never snipes', I can quite easily get more than that and do so regularly.
The sniper does not instantly kill things from half a kilometre away because it's a case of risk vs reward. The ability to sit back in the redline (and like it or not, that will be done) with a sniper and instasplat players at very little risk would be broken.
If we look at Jathniel here, someone debating this in a more civilised fashion (albeit still in a frustrated tone) instead of exploding at people in a pathetic manner, they're trying to make sensible suggestions on how to help the sniper become viable without going straight to the other extreme of being overpowered.
I snipe somewhat regularly. I do it as a relaxing activity and rarely get bothered by enemy players as I hide in a scout suit in places that aren't the centrepiece for firefights.
I do okay with it. But I see issues. It's not quite as good as it should be. It has too few mechanics supporting it to make it an interesting role. It has bugs associated with it, normally the kind of terrible hit detection bugs that are almost prehistoric.
It would be nice to see those fixed. With Rattati making actual sensible tweaks, there could be a real chance to make some good changes to help the role.
It's frustrating to me, then, to see trash posts from people like you who don't have any real concept of anything approaching a balanced system clogging up what a thread that could otherwise be something that could be shown to Rattati to ask for some moderate buffs.
I want to see snipers helped so they're a role which is viable and interesting. Not so that they're EZmode instakill machines that you can sit in the redline with which promptly get nerfed back into the dark ages never to be touched again. A reasonable case could be made to improve them.
Being so sensitive as to go off on a rant at the slightest sign of someone not completely agreeing with all the buffs ever does not help the cause.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
15230
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Posted - 2014.07.06 22:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
@Civil people
It should be entirely possible to get a coherent analysis of the present state of snipers together. From there, it ought to be possible to discuss this in a more reasonable fashion and get a proposal that might actually be looked at by someone who matters.
As frustrating as sniping may be to you, this started off as a rant thread and was met with similarly low quality responses. Some good started to develop out of it as a small number of people started to begin thinking with a modicum of intelligence about the problem.
It was never going to become a thread genuinely worth looking at for smart proposals about where snipers should go though.
So I suggest that if you're really concerned about the role of sniping, you should cool off and in a civilised manner put together some correct statements and build a proposal out of that.
I might do that myself.
Ranting in GD only enhances the perception of snipers as whiners and makes people think that nothing serious should be done. Come back with a decent argument presented in a manner that isn't blatantly biased and people might be more inclined to listen.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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