DUST Search - [REQUEST] JLAV removal.

Seymour KrelbornX wrote:

Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:

Brokerib wrote:

This answer is good enough that I think it bares repeating.

Baal Omniscient wrote:

This is silly. A prof 5 proto assault forge on a fully bpo'd out skinweave heavy can 3 shot a fully fitted, fully specced, massively expensive ADS out of the sky for under 80k..... and you guys are pissy that a 30k car loaded up with RE's by a guy who specced into them for that purpose and who can navigate close enough to you to RAM you without you noticing is blowing up your tank?

Um... situational awareness much?

Teamwork?

Isn't that the drivel AV players have been hearing for the last 6-8 months? "Use Teamwork!" Well, have your squad let you know when there's a LAV in your vicinity. You're not with your squad? Well, you're not using teamwork. Sad day.

Player ingenuity. It's a beautiful thing. Rail tankers could (and on some maps, do) camp the redline all match. They thought it up as an effective tactic. The only issue I have with it is that there's no effective way to counter it since OB's can't really drop decent tanks anymore. jLAV's ARE easy to counter. You can have teammates set up proxy's which will detonate the RE's on the LAV when they go off. You can have a teammate with a swarm on standby to hit the LAV's and either scare them off, kill them or tag their RE's with missiles, detonating them (along with the driver). Or you can have teammates spot LAV's for you. Or you can have situational awareness since you can hear LAV's from a long ways off. OR you can combine some of these ideas and do pretty well avoiding/killing 99% of them.

Happy tanking, jLAV's are the least of your worries. ;)

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2240587#post2240587

I responded to it in the same thread.

There is a huge difference between a prof 5 IAFG and a JLAV.

I imagine people would be complaining somewhat if a CRG SG could one-shot a max EHP proto Sentinel with a bodyshot.

but you're not being one shot... it takes at least 6 remotes to blow up a tank.... that's 6 shots.

EDIT: oh and 1 remote kills all but proto amar heavies so....


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3946	Posted - 2014.07.04 01:00:00 - [1] - Quote JLAVs were introduced in 1.7 as an apparently unintended byproduct of the change to REs. At the time the vehicle armour hardeners all but prevented dangerous damage being dealt to HAVs; this left the JLAV, usually stacked with prototype level equipment (because otherwise there just wasn't enough damage for success), as the only real viable means for AVing outside a tank. For that reason I, and many other members of the HAV community, accepted them as necessary for some form of balance. Time passed and hardeners were nerfed. Forge guns were now somewhat viable, but the power of the rep-tanked Madrugar meant that JLAVs were still the most effective tactic for dealing with those tanks, and so we bit our tongues. Now the armour repairers have been nerfed; as well as Large Blasters being less effective for attacking infantry, infantry AV is, as a general rule, in a very good place at the moment. Consequently, I think the time has come to formally request that they be removed. The JLAV is a low-ISK high-reward tactic; indeed, for much of the community it entails zero risk. It is difficult to counter short of hiding in the redline at the peak of a hill, owing to the speed and manoeuvrability of the LAV, and should it strike you there is no possible way to survive, short of a max-tank hardened Gunnlogi (the fittings being 2x Complex Heavy Extenders and 1x Hardener, and 1x Complex Heavy Extender and 2x Hardeners). It is akin to the much-reviled 'bumper dropship' in its near-zero investment reward, and is actually much higher reward owing to the enormous number of vehicle damage points it brings. It is also alike to the old 'murder taxi' of early Uprising, particularly considering the near-free reward those had, and to the current 'LAV Heavy', which is similarly low-investment, low-skill high reward. I hope you'll make the right decision. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3946	Posted - 2014.07.04 01:13:00 - [2] - Quote BLOOD Ruler wrote: No you just suck I use it and love dying by it. How much do your fittings cost? I'll tell you what, next time I see you running infantry I'll pull a BPO LAV with a nitrous and an HMG and I'll murder-taxi you. Deal? Or if you're flying I'll pull out a Gorgon and ram you. Sound fun? CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3948	Posted - 2014.07.04 01:43:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Considering AV actually affects vehicles properly (since the proficiency bug was fixed) and since the vehicle changes were made to render them mortal like everything else, JLAVs are entirely uncommon. Are they irritating for you? Yes. Are ramming dropships annoying? Yes. Do either of them need to go? No. JLAVs are no longer necessary, but that doesn't make them invalid. JLAVs are still nigh uncounterable, and while I might not see them every match, if I actually decide to perform with my HAVs one'll come out in every second match, at the very least. Perhaps if REs showed up on scans, or if red and blue LAVs had different audio, or if a direct hit actually guaranteed the kill, but none of these things are the case. As such, I want them gone. As for bumper dropships, they're beyond annoying. ADSes are entirely killable nowadays, and that bumper dropships are a tactic is total BS. Calling in RDVs to hit the ship is bad enough, but the bumper dropship implies a singularity of purpose that a defense mechanism like calling in an RDV just doesn't match. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3955	Posted - 2014.07.04 03:33:00 - [4] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: If you're so worried about losing ISK, don't bring it out. A vehicle's/suit's ISK value shouldn't guarantee it's survivability. I run some expensive proto suits, and lose them to militia weapons wielded by militia suit-wearing enemies. You don't hear me crying for a nerf, and they don't even have to die to kill me. Tell you what, I'll pull out my BPO LAV, BPO sent and STD HMG and gib you a few times from there when I see you in match. Maybe I'll skip the HMG and just Roadkill you. Or if you're an ADS pilot... oh boy prepare to get Gorgon'd! I dunno if I'm remembering right, but I seem to recall BPO LAVs beig removed because they were OP roadkillers. But I suppose it was okay to complain about that, now, wasn't it? EDIT: So I also run some expensive proto suits. There is a vast difference between 'going ISK negative for two-three matches dying once' and 'dying twice and still going positive'. Especially when the HAV in question doesn't even have to be proto. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3959	Posted - 2014.07.04 05:14:00 - [5] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: a proto got roadkilled by a LAV they need to uninstall or stop proto-pubbing It's easier than you suggest to Roadkill anyone let alone protos. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3977	Posted - 2014.07.04 11:55:00 - [6] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: This has been discussed over and over. I think I'll just copy and paste my usual response: I don't think JLAVs should be removed at all. This is a sandbox (with very little sand) game thats involves risk and reward. I have myself done this type of strategy myself for shts and giggles and I found it to be fun. Yes it CAN be inexpensive to grab a milita suit, throw on some REs get a militia LAV and ram a proto fit tank. But as I stated before, this is a risk and reward game. You risked your 500k+ tank and you lost it. Yes I am aware that it is the way you lost it that is causing so much QQ over this. But you would be QQing just as hard if I was to use my forge gun to blow you up. "No! Because that is legit AV!" Well so is using REs! And if people want to attach them to an LAV and ram you let them or let them try. This argument just reminds me too much of a few new players in EVE QQing because their miners got suicide ganked in High-Sec. This *** happens in sandbox games. Much like how someone will come along and tear down your house in Minecraft because they wanted too. Yeah it pissed people off, but it is allowed. TL;DR Harden up bro and let us keep a little more sand in the sandbox. No. Your post betrays an absolute failure of comprehension. In no possible way is dying the issue here. If you read my OP you would realise exactly what my attitudes to 'dying' are. They have nothing, and I repeat nothing to do with losing the ISK. I am fully aware that by bringing my vehicle onto the field I risk losing it. I have been insta killed by forge guns, I've misjudged my enemy and been destroyed, I've simply scrubbed up and lost a particle cannon to a Sica. REs are 'legit AV'. REs strapped to a LAV for zero investment should not be. Every time I pull my tank onto the field I risk between 250 and 600k. In the same way, every time I bring my AFG onto the battlefield I risk between 60 and 150k. If I was to use a JLAV it would be literally free, and have a far more definite outcome. You call this a 'risk and reward' game. This is bleedingly obvious. What should also be bleedingly obvious is that a JLAV skews that 'risk vs reward' enormously. But hey. "It's a sandbox". So how's about I get back my Charybdis and we return the collision damage to what it used to be? No? CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4007	Posted - 2014.07.04 16:03:00 - [7] - Quote Brokerib wrote: This answer is good enough that I think it bares repeating. Baal Omniscient wrote: This is silly. A prof 5 proto assault forge on a fully bpo'd out skinweave heavy can 3 shot a fully fitted, fully specced, massively expensive ADS out of the sky for under 80k..... and you guys are pissy that a 30k car loaded up with RE's by a guy who specced into them for that purpose and who can navigate close enough to you to RAM you without you noticing is blowing up your tank? Um... situational awareness much? Teamwork? Isn't that the drivel AV players have been hearing for the last 6-8 months? "Use Teamwork!" Well, have your squad let you know when there's a LAV in your vicinity. You're not with your squad? Well, you're not using teamwork. Sad day. Player ingenuity. It's a beautiful thing. Rail tankers could (and on some maps, do) camp the redline all match. They thought it up as an effective tactic. The only issue I have with it is that there's no effective way to counter it since OB's can't really drop decent tanks anymore. jLAV's ARE easy to counter. You can have teammates set up proxy's which will detonate the RE's on the LAV when they go off. You can have a teammate with a swarm on standby to hit the LAV's and either scare them off, kill them or tag their RE's with missiles, detonating them (along with the driver). Or you can have teammates spot LAV's for you. Or you can have situational awareness since you can hear LAV's from a long ways off. OR you can combine some of these ideas and do pretty well avoiding/killing 99% of them. Happy tanking, jLAV's are the least of your worries. ;) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2240587#post2240587 I responded to it in the same thread. There is a huge difference between a prof 5 IAFG and a JLAV. I imagine people would be complaining somewhat if a CRG SG could one-shot a max EHP proto Sentinel with a bodyshot. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4026	Posted - 2014.07.05 00:55:00 - [8] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: why is it only dedicated tankers complain about this? when I stick 2 remotes on my lav and leave it somewhere to be hacked so I can blow it up with the hacker no one complains. when I stick remotes on my bumper and run up to an enemy lav with a drive by heavy, jump out and set the remotes off blowing them up... no complaints when I put a ton of remotes on my lav and drive right into a group of reds jump out, and blow everyone up... not a forum peep. when I run up to a tank and stick remotes on it and blow it up... no complaints. but I put remotes on the lav and run into a tanker and the tears ocean flows.... tell me how this is more than just an "I don't like being killed this way" thread. you talk about risk vs isk... but when I kill a proto in my dren fit no one cries... how is this different? Dedicated tankers are the only one it happens to consistently. In the same way, pure HAV pilots didn't really understand the whole 'murder taxi' thing (until it really took off, of course). You'll also notice that it's the extraordinarily wealthy persons or those that use their tanks as joke characters among us that 'laugh when it happens' . Your LAV example is a passive use of them If you, say, drove up to a heavy, hopped put and detonated, people would complain. The difference is that it isn't happening match after match. On top of that, you still need to be in the same suit. It's not like you can detonate REs in an unaltered 'Frontline' suit, after all. As for why we're upset about it 'right now' well, it's happening with more frequency recently. I'm sick of it. And finally - the only guaranteed way I have ever found of killing a JLAV, even one running at me, was to one-shot it. It was rare I'd get the chance for a second shot. Splash damage on the remotes either doesn't work consistently or the REs are often placed so as to mitigate it. You're right, I don't like being killed this way. I think it's safe to say people don't much like being killed by HMGs right now, and it don't see the situation as much different in that sense. (It is obviously different in other senses. I'm just saying it's a case where the community has said 'I don't like to be killed this way'.) CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4026	Posted - 2014.07.05 00:57:00 - [9] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Brokerib wrote: This answer is good enough that I think it bares repeating. Baal Omniscient wrote: This is silly. A prof 5 proto assault forge on a fully bpo'd out skinweave heavy can 3 shot a fully fitted, fully specced, massively expensive ADS out of the sky for under 80k..... and you guys are pissy that a 30k car loaded up with RE's by a guy who specced into them for that purpose and who can navigate close enough to you to RAM you without you noticing is blowing up your tank? Um... situational awareness much? Teamwork? Isn't that the drivel AV players have been hearing for the last 6-8 months? "Use Teamwork!" Well, have your squad let you know when there's a LAV in your vicinity. You're not with your squad? Well, you're not using teamwork. Sad day. Player ingenuity. It's a beautiful thing. Rail tankers could (and on some maps, do) camp the redline all match. They thought it up as an effective tactic. The only issue I have with it is that there's no effective way to counter it since OB's can't really drop decent tanks anymore. jLAV's ARE easy to counter. You can have teammates set up proxy's which will detonate the RE's on the LAV when they go off. You can have a teammate with a swarm on standby to hit the LAV's and either scare them off, kill them or tag their RE's with missiles, detonating them (along with the driver). Or you can have teammates spot LAV's for you. Or you can have situational awareness since you can hear LAV's from a long ways off. OR you can combine some of these ideas and do pretty well avoiding/killing 99% of them. Happy tanking, jLAV's are the least of your worries. ;) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2240587#post2240587 I responded to it in the same thread. There is a huge difference between a prof 5 IAFG and a JLAV. I imagine people would be complaining somewhat if a CRG SG could one-shot a max EHP proto Sentinel with a bodyshot. but you're not being one shot... it takes at least 6 remotes to blow up a tank.... that's 6 shots. EDIT: oh and 1 remote kills all but proto amar heavies so.... When I can hold all the charges from my AFG and simultaneously I'll call it 'six shots'. Until then it's 'one'. As for REs killing things, well, my ADV Amarr Sent can survive some, and a friend of mine tanks them in a bricked CalSent. Not that I see the connection. Especially since people complained and REs were nerfed. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4026	Posted - 2014.07.05 01:00:00 - [10] - Quote Ace Mercenary wrote: lol 1.7.? I did Jihad Jeep before 1.7 and nobody quoted this is my ALT Either you don't know what JLAV is or what 1.7 is. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!

Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4032	Posted - 2014.07.05 11:09:00 - [11] - Quote Seymour KrelbornX wrote: lorhak your rebuttals to my posts were lacking. I kill more people by sticking remotes to my lav in all the other ways I mentioned than I do tanks. I always stay in the same suit to JLAV as my remotes, because if I don't hit you hard enough I do need to get out and manually set them off. and you did not tell me how blowing you up with such little cost to me is any different than me being in a total bpo fit and taking out a proto. there is no risk for me there and I don't even die if when I kill protos so how is the moderate amount of isk I use JLAVing plus using up a clone worse than killing proto in bpos for that matter if you are in a militia tank and you kill protos who's suits cost more justified in your mind? see? this is the slippery slope you slide down when you try talking about risk vs isk.... what you are really asking for is a garaunteed "I win button" if you spend enough isk. furthermore... if it takes 6 remotes it is 6 shots even if they all go off together... I have been in a situation where I have had remotes shot off my lav or had to detonate a few before I get to the tank, and the tank doesn't blow up.... means I have to go back to a depot and get more to try again. you just need better situational awareness and run with a good squad...jlavs are easy to kill if you are working together. How about this: when I'm in proto (or BPO) fighting a BPO (or proto) we're on even territory. In the time it takes for me to kill him e could have killed me. Using up a clone is not a significant disadvantage. The only thing on which it had an actual effect, nine times out of ten, is your KDR. I can count on my fingers the number of times matches have ended with fewer than ten clones per side for me in the last week. If I'm in a Militia Tank and I kill a proto there's ABSOLUTELY something wrong with the equation. That something is MLT tanks, and I'm not trying to say they're in a good place, far from it. So that's not a valid point. I am in no way asking for a 'guaranteed I-win button'. To continue your comparison what you're saying is a BPO should be viable in PC. It is not. If it takes six remotes it is not six shots. It is six remotes. One does not 'shoot' remotes. It is foolish to compare the detonation method of a remote explosive to a forge gun's firing mechanic (in the sense that you're implicitly doing by suggesting the single impact of the 'manned cruise missile' that is a JLAV is multiple shots). It is a single source of damage all detonating within an irrelevantly short period of time of one-another. The fact that there are multiple devices involved is not relevant. I hardly think people would suggest that Ishukone Nova Knives are incapable of 'one-shotting' a heavy, despite the fact that it technically takes two swipes. EDIT: forgot the squad comment. Let's say I have a full squad of super-team-players all in FotM proto gear running 5+ KDRs and huge win/loss. There's a few LAVs on the field. They tell me every time a red LAV goes by, especially those headed in my direction (not that you can tell, but for the sake of argument I've got the defend order). Sometimes it happens that a blue LAV intersects the red one and it's just the blue one that goes by. Sometimes it goes by me and I shoot it. But there's only five of them and they can't cover the whole field. LAVs are quick and stealthy, and the presence of blue LAVs means audio alone is not a tell - visual confirmation is required. So I go tank hunting, or I prepare to push a point in advance, or I do something that takes me out of their immediate line of sight. I get AVed but I survive or kill them because I'm competent, and probably better than most AVers. All the while LAVs are driving around and the whine of the engines is constant. I can't activate my modules on reflex because there's no point. All of a sudden I explode. Or maybe I see him coming, and I shoot at him. And I score +75 Baloch, but the REs don't blow. How's that? Better? CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 4032	Posted - 2014.07.05 11:17:00 - [12] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: OP post Duplicate thread. There's so many of those - and even recent ones. Won't repeat my posts here, go there instead: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2219142#post2219142 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2223651#post2223651 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2239961#post2239961 A Godin post, a GD post and Racro's well-intentioned, poorly punctuated version. Sorry, I'm sticking to mine. To be more specific, the Godin post was almost intentionally derailed by Godin himself. CCP Rattati Best Dev AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5 CalLogi, you're next!