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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1543
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Posted - 2014.06.30 19:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
its about time ccp defines the logistics and assault roles. frankly this could be said for all roles but i will stick with these 2 as they are so similar yet so different.
there is this underlining problem with dust with ccp creating roles and gear to go with them yet leaving those same suits open to be replaced or outdoing others. 2 suits that had this issue for a long time are the logistics and the assault.
it all comes down to what ccp thinks a logi/assault is and what we think a logi/assault is. 1 thing we can all agree on is assaults are for killing and logis are for healing and support yet even that definition is open to interpretation and leaves you either very strong in one way and weak in the other. in the case of these 2 roles it has made the balance impossible in most cases making most combinations unplayable.
it appears to me that roles should be given outside of the primary role of a soldier and that is to kill.
if we did this to assault logis what we would be left with is 2 suits equally combat effective and able to compete with each other and other combat suits but each with its own defining role differentiating it from the others.
here is an example of how we could do this to create defining roles for both while keeping them both equally combat effective
1) medium suit bonus affects all medium role suits on a combat effectiveness level equally
2) all medium suits within a race are fitted very similar with similar stats including pg/cpu
3) assault suits would receive effectiveness bonuses to combat equipment like scanners/RE and av grenade/ weapons
4) logistics would receive effectiveness bonuses to supply/support equipment like hives/repair tools and flux grenade
what this gives us is assaults with the ability to assault and trap enemies while destroying their support vehicles and lets logis fight with the same effectiveness but be free to supply and heal whenever needed.
the same model could be used to create new roles in other classes like scouts and heavies while not greatly affecting their combat ability against each other.
doing this allows the suits to be easily balance against their other role counterparts while not allowing their actual roles to be able to be abused to drastically alter their effectiveness like we have now.
this creates a greater start point for balancing things like av/wp farming and many other hard to balance issues.
just an idea
All Hail Legion
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1556
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Posted - 2014.07.07 18:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
bump
All Hail Legion
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1668
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Posted - 2014.07.07 19:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Logis need to be heavy frames, more like the Commando in slot layout and speed.
The problem with slayer-logis stems from the logistics suit's slots and the nature of the medium frame itself:
-Logies need high HP to outlast fire from the enemy. Med suits have low native hp, so to rectify this, logis are given high slot counts. However, this leads to abuses by using non-hp related mods like damage mods and biotics as well as hp mods.
-Despite logis having a slightly larger hit-box and being slightly slower than assaults, it's not a significant difference, allowing logis to function on par with assaults while also having the extra slots, equipment, and pg/cpu.
Making logi suits similar to the commando will solve this:
-Heavy frames have high native ehp, meaning it is feasible to reduce the slot layout of logis significantly while still providing sufficient ehp.
-Being a heavy/commando frame will reduce the agility and speed of the logi, reducing it's combat effectiveness. However, I have noticed commando's have little trouble being able to keep up with a group, so being able to move with the team and support shouldn't be much more difficult, and it would also force players not to overextend their aggressive pushes or else lose their logistics.
I also think commandos should be medium frame with a hyper-offensivness and low defenses whereas the assault is more balanced and that all weapons need a nerf with combat suits (scout, assault, heavy) getting a native bonus (like Eve ships), but that's another thread.
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ADAM-OF-EVE
Dead Man's Game
1556
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Posted - 2014.07.07 20:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Logis need to be heavy frames, more like the Commando in slot layout and speed.
The problem with slayer-logis stems from the logistics suit's slots and the nature of the medium frame itself:
-Logies need high HP to outlast fire from the enemy. Med suits have low native hp, so to rectify this, logis are given high slot counts. However, this leads to abuses by using non-hp related mods like damage mods and biotics as well as hp mods.
-Despite logis having a slightly larger hit-box and being slightly slower than assaults, it's not a significant difference, allowing logis to function on par with assaults while also having the extra slots, equipment, and pg/cpu.
Making logi suits similar to the commando will solve this:
-Heavy frames have high native ehp, meaning it is feasible to reduce the slot layout of logis significantly while still providing sufficient ehp.
-Being a heavy/commando frame will reduce the agility and speed of the logi, reducing it's combat effectiveness. However, I have noticed commando's have little trouble being able to keep up with a group, so being able to move with the team and support shouldn't be much more difficult, and it would also force players not to overextend their aggressive pushes or else lose their logistics.
I also think commandos should be medium frame with a hyper-offensivness and low defenses whereas the assault is more balanced and that all weapons need a nerf with combat suits (scout, assault, heavy) getting a native bonus (like Eve ships), but that's another thread.
i suggested this idea also a while back but it still doesn't fix the assault issue. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123577&find=unread.
what i suggest here wouldn't give us slayer logis. it gives us 2 equally effective combat suits as medium suits then they both essentially become logis. assault logistics focused on alternate forms of damage like av/ewar and support logistics focused on all forms of non damage support. both can then be balanced more fairly without 1 coming out on top like we currently have. both would be soldiers first then their roles. if you choose to ignore your role then you are not going to be outdone by someone who fits for it. the one who fits will have the advantage of a secondary role to fallback on while the other would not and would only receive a marginal increase in direct combat effectiveness.
a logi would be equal to an assault on AP but their distinct roles would be the distinguishing factor. this means more mediums as mainstay suits overall on the field and no need to slayer logi as it would be the same as an assault
All Hail Legion
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501st Headstrong
G0DS AM0NG MEN
General Tso's Alliance
240
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Posted - 2014.07.08 22:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Logis need to be heavy frames, more like the Commando in slot layout and speed.
The problem with slayer-logis stems from the logistics suit's slots and the nature of the medium frame itself:
-Logies need high HP to outlast fire from the enemy. Med suits have low native hp, so to rectify this, logis are given high slot counts. However, this leads to abuses by using non-hp related mods like damage mods and biotics as well as hp mods.
-Despite logis having a slightly larger hit-box and being slightly slower than assaults, it's not a significant difference, allowing logis to function on par with assaults while also having the extra slots, equipment, and pg/cpu.
Making logi suits similar to the commando will solve this:
-Heavy frames have high native ehp, meaning it is feasible to reduce the slot layout of logis significantly while still providing sufficient ehp.
-Being a heavy/commando frame will reduce the agility and speed of the logi, reducing it's combat effectiveness. However, I have noticed commando's have little trouble being able to keep up with a group, so being able to move with the team and support shouldn't be much more difficult, and it would also force players not to overextend their aggressive pushes or else lose their logistics.
I also think commandos should be medium frame with a hyper-offensivness and low defenses whereas the assault is more balanced and that all weapons need a nerf with combat suits (scout, assault, heavy) getting a native bonus (like Eve ships), but that's another thread.
Logis like myself stack HP because people gun for me. It's not my fault I simply can shoot them back better. I stack armor and Shields because that Core you chuck at my heavy wont kill him, but it could kill me if I have low HP. The problem is I can scan better if I'm a Gal Logi, Rep better, give better Nanohives, Lay better uplinks. There is no equipment the Assault can use that a logi can't use better. If I tank out my Minmatar, I have wicked Shields...But I don't have recharge time fast enough and my shield delay is crippling.I supplement that by making my Assault a Regen Machine...only my Logi has more slots so I could do that just as well. You need to have it wear Assaults can outlast the dangers of their job (Taking high enemy fire and being able to stay in the fight till Logistics come with Heavies. Commandos can't be high damage, low Hp because how will they do their damage exactly?
Assault- Very High Regen, not as much as the Scout, faster than the Scout since a Scout that can tank and run faster than an Assault will rarely ever flank, they'll engage directly. That's called an Assault, only you're using a Scout Suit for that...
Logi-Support. Stays with Heavies for protection, can run with Assaults if the squad has no heavies. Logi bonuses are for helping Assaults keep slaying as well as Heavies and Commandos. Rep tool, keeps me out of harms way, Scanner shows the Assaults where to focus fire, Nanohives allow you to spray and keep slaying, Uplinks for if you die, don't need to run all the way back.
Commando. Damage Machine, Slower than an Assault and Scout, and a Logi. Faster than Heavies. Damage machine. Mops the floor with all but Sentinels (Which should be able to super-stack but be very slow).
Heavies (Non-sentinels)- They lay the fire down and set up that frontline. Slow, but faster than Sentinels. Very high Hp, but able to be killed more easily by same weapons as Assaults and etc.
Sentinels- Take damage, throw it back. Very hard to kill due to resistances. Slowest suit due to HP.
Scouts- Anti Sentinel Slayer. Can flank, getting around the Front line. Sentinels should not be able to turn very quickly, that's why they get resistance. Heavies (Basic Frames) can, they are killed quickly without resistance, relying on HP. Still turn slowly, just not as slow as Sentinels.
The other Medium Frames are to be interspersed in.
THIS Is how Dust should be. Checks and Balances...
Debate
From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.
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