DUST Search - Mass and Vehicles

Roger Cordill wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

I agree.

Mass should be a factor when it comes to vehicles. I especially like how you put the racial vehicles into spectrum. However, I think the races need to be arranged better in the spectrum to account for their specialty.

Amarr = Highest Mass (Armor Tankers)
Gallente = High Mass (Armor Tankers)
Minmatar = Lower Mass (Shield Tankers/sometimes mixed due to their flexibility)
Caldari = Lowest Mass (Pure Shield Tanking)

Caldari are a naturally slow race.... I was led to believe their tonnage of ship was high....or was that signature? As such the Caldari need to reflect that. They are not a fast race...generally speaking.... and in many cases equal to or slower than Amarr....however planet side gravity has big effects on how we move.

Perhaps we should consider Shield Mass Lower and thus more affected by increased weight of modules......

It's called using weaker engines................

No, the speed profiles needs to stay the same. Otherwise, Gallente will always be kited by Caldari HAV's. WHy? Well, let's see:

Caldari has usually high shield buffer, and/or resists, or a really good DPS.

Caldari using this this model has a better speed.

Seeing as though they usually use turrets that has a really good range, Gallente would struggle to get clone enough to them to kill the Caldari HAV, and it'll die.

But Caldari would need to actually have a good amount of shields, not trying to look like a Winmatar vehicle and failing.........

" We need to reclaim their fates and envelop them in ours. And we need to love them, no matter how much it hurts."


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True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11136	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:00:00 - [1] - Quote In Legion would it be possible to implement as Mass System for vehicles which would affects various aspects of movement, and hopefully spicing up how vehicles move and how they can be customised. The basics of Mass would refer to a vehicles acceleration and top speed, affecting in some cases one positively, while affecting another negatively. This statistic could be modified by the weight of modules, with certain modules being significantly more weighty, such as Armour plating, Shield Extension Units, even being affected by type of Mass Increasing and Mass Decreasing Hull modules. For Ground Vehicles Mass would affect vehicles by manipulating how the vehicle moves. Lower Mass would increase a Vehicles Ability to Accelerate and Top Speed positively, but reduce torque. Higher Mass Vehicles would accelerate more slowly and not reach high top speeds, but have strong toque. For Aerial Vehicles Lower Mass would mean the vehicle is lighter and thus more manoeuvrable turn and accelerate faster. Higher Mass Vehicles have better vertical lift statistics as well as a higher top speed, but slower acceleration and handling would be more tricky with a greater physics threshold. In a general summary of Racial Mass distributions the following would look like. Amarr- Highest Mass, Slow, Good Handling, Tanking Modules are Heavier Caldari- High Mass, Slow but better than Amarr, with Good Handling. Tanking Modules are Lighter Gallente- Lower Mass, Fast, Poor Handling, Tanking Modules are Heavier Minmatar- Lowest Mass, Fastest, Worst Handling, Tanking Modules are adaptive and "Ubiquitous"* Allowing Minmatar to create Heavier Battle Tanks or Faster Scout Tanks. Or for Aerial Vehicles More Durable Vehicles, or more manoeuvrable zippy Dropships. Example of Hull Modules Carbon Fibre Hull - Decreases Mass by 2000kg (15% Reduction to Top Speed and 10% Reduction Acceleration Penalties - 15% Armour HP) Reinforced Steel Hull - Increases Mass by 3000kg (15% Increase to Torque and +5-10% Base Armour HP +20% to Top Speed and 10% to Acceleration) In this way Shield Tanks take advantage of the Mass Reducing Modules Speed altering affects mitigating the armour penalties, consequently the opposite is also true. Armour Tanks take advantage of the increased Armour modifiers and can mitigate the speed penalties. ((More to Come)) What do we think? " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III*
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11136	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:14:00 - [2] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I agree. Mass should be a factor when it comes to vehicles. I especially like how you put the racial vehicles into spectrum. However, I think the races need to be arranged better in the spectrum to account for their specialty. Amarr = Highest Mass (Armor Tankers) Gallente = High Mass (Armor Tankers) Minmatar = Lower Mass (Shield Tankers/sometimes mixed due to their flexibility) Caldari = Lowest Mass (Pure Shield Tanking) And I am trying to consider a dynamic way that vehicles could use this. I mean Torque Modules were useless in previous builds because they didn't do enough..... but if they increase and HAV's torque and armour, while reducing speed, armour tanks become tough as nails HP wise but can't escape easily, whereas Shield HAV can reduce their mass to be faster more hit and run.....BUT Caldari vehicles can retain their naturally high shield values and sacrifice armour instead.....all the while being slower than the Minmatar due to natural base Mass differences. Mass IMO should be a customisable aspect of vehicles which fundamentally affect how a vehicle operates before modules even go on it, and be a consideration in module selection. "Is my HAV too heavy? Will it be able to get in and out of a fight, is it tough enough?" Said the Amarrian Tanker. "Is my HAV balanced between weight and manoeuvrability and able to take a punch" said the Minmatar Tanker. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11137	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:21:00 - [3] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I agree. Mass should be a factor when it comes to vehicles. I especially like how you put the racial vehicles into spectrum. However, I think the races need to be arranged better in the spectrum to account for their specialty. Amarr = Highest Mass (Armor Tankers) Gallente = High Mass (Armor Tankers) Minmatar = Lower Mass (Shield Tankers/sometimes mixed due to their flexibility) Caldari = Lowest Mass (Pure Shield Tanking) Caldari are a naturally slow race.... I was led to believe their tonnage of ship was high....or was that signature? As such the Caldari need to reflect that. They are not a fast race...generally speaking.... and in many cases equal to or slower than Amarr....however planet side gravity has big effects on how we move. Perhaps we should consider Shield Mass Lower and thus more affected by increased weight of modules...... " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11137	Posted - 2014.06.25 01:38:00 - [4] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: Some of that could be encouraged but not forced, by using module stats. E.g. if Amarr vehicles got a bonus to +HP from plates, then they'd probably double-plate them, which would slow them down. If Gallente vehicles got a bonus to reppers then they'd probably favour a rep + hardener setup instead. Thats basically the point. I think in vehicles we can incentivise specific specialisation, and their flavourful racial alignments, through the inclusion of mass as a vehicle statistic. The system would have to be robust enough to to eliminate playstyles but allow for the development and creation of new ones. I mean all racial vehicles should have modifiers that bring them to their racial technologies style, however if you want a light and fast Amarrian tank you give up greater Armour HP than any other group. If you want a slow and durable Minmatar tank you can have one but you sacrifice your speed and acceleration for greater EHP. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11138	Posted - 2014.06.25 02:07:00 - [5] - Quote SponkSponkSponk wrote: True Adamance wrote: Caldari are a naturally slow race.... I was led to believe their tonnage of ship was high....or was that signature? As such the Caldari need to reflect that. They are not a fast race...generally speaking.... and in many cases equal to or slower than Amarr....however planet side gravity has big effects on how we move. The idea is that Caldari vehicles might not be the fastest, but they also don't get slower as they add +HP modules either. No all vehicles get slower the more you add HP modules to them, however since Caldari has a lower base speed its penalties are lessened. Whereas a Minmatar takes more penalty to increasing its mass. Thats not to say hulls won't be competitive. E.G- Min tank moves at 60km/ph its mass is 40 Tonnes. It has 2350 Shield and 1550 armour Cal Tank moves at 55 km/ph its mass is 50 Tones It has 3000 Shields and 1200 armour Both stack a an 2 2000kg Shield Extenders (totalling 4000kg, 4t of extra weight) giving them 1175 Shields each. The modifier in this case is percentage of total weight. Minmatar is adding 10% of its weight, and this moves and accelerates 10% slower. Caldari are adding 8% (through rough and poor maths) and in this moves 8% slower. The Minmatar HAV suffers greater speed reductions but has doubled its HP (+100% gains), the Caldari has suffered less due to naturally less speed and greater weight but has only increased its HP by 75% (roughtly). So in the end Min tank moves at 54 km/ph its mass is 44 Tonnes. It has 4700 Shield and 1550 armour. Cal Tank moves at 50.6 km/ph its mass is 54 Tones It has 5350 Shields and 1200 armour. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11148	Posted - 2014.06.25 04:06:00 - [6] - Quote God Hates Lags wrote: I'd really like to see gravity play an effect in Legion. Different sized planets have different g-forces that effect jump height, fall damage, dropship accelleration, etc. This would make the game more strategic and make matches more varied. If that was on the agenda I also have an entire post planned for how those gravities and additionally one for types of planets and weather effects...... but lets not get too technical. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11239	Posted - 2014.06.26 22:26:00 - [7] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I agree. Mass should be a factor when it comes to vehicles. I especially like how you put the racial vehicles into spectrum. However, I think the races need to be arranged better in the spectrum to account for their specialty. Amarr = Highest Mass (Armor Tankers) Gallente = High Mass (Armor Tankers) Minmatar = Lower Mass (Shield Tankers/sometimes mixed due to their flexibility) Caldari = Lowest Mass (Pure Shield Tanking) I like the original ranking - Minmatar are supposed to be the fastest - compare to Eve for example. Speed tanking Minmatar ships is easier than with other ships. That's why I established Minmatar vehicles as Low Mass. They should have some of the highest top speed and acceleration values to compensate for their lack of Armour and Shielding. " Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well." -Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11333	Posted - 2014.06.29 21:27:00 - [8] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: True Adamance wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I agree. Mass should be a factor when it comes to vehicles. I especially like how you put the racial vehicles into spectrum. However, I think the races need to be arranged better in the spectrum to account for their specialty. Amarr = Highest Mass (Armor Tankers) Gallente = High Mass (Armor Tankers) Minmatar = Lower Mass (Shield Tankers/sometimes mixed due to their flexibility) Caldari = Lowest Mass (Pure Shield Tanking) Caldari are a naturally slow race.... I was led to believe their tonnage of ship was high....or was that signature? As such the Caldari need to reflect that. They are not a fast race...generally speaking.... and in many cases equal to or slower than Amarr....however planet side gravity has big effects on how we move. Perhaps we should consider Shield Mass Lower and thus more affected by increased weight of modules...... It's called using weaker engines................ No, the speed profiles needs to stay the same. Otherwise, Gallente will always be kited by Caldari HAV's. WHy? Well, let's see: Caldari has usually high shield buffer, and/or resists, or a really good DPS. Caldari using this this model has a better speed. Seeing as though they usually use turrets that has a really good range, Gallente would struggle to get clone enough to them to kill the Caldari HAV, and it'll die. But Caldari would need to actually have a good amount of shields, not trying to look like a Winmatar vehicle and failing......... It could also be that instead of a Mass Based system affecting vehicle movement we have the opportunity to fit different sizes of engine. Think Armour Core Verdict Day. 4x Arm weapon selections, Head, Shoulders, Legs, Torso, Engine, Probes, Targeting Array, etc all up for selection and customisation. All affect how heavy your mech is, how much weight it can bear, its base and top speeds, its acceleration, thrust, jump height, weapons fit and how those weapons functioned. " We need to reclaim their fates and envelop them in ours. And we need to love them, no matter how much it hurts."
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 11333	Posted - 2014.06.29 22:20:00 - [9] - Quote Hawk-eye Occultus wrote: Why should mass apply exclusively to vehicles? I'd like to see some infantry mass-play too! It could. All modules could be give a mass value like in EVE and affect how a suit operates. For example scouts suffer significantly worse speed penalties to added mass from HP modules, whereas a Sentinel suffers less from Mass as it is already slow. " We need to reclaim their fates and envelop them in ours. And we need to love them, no matter how much it hurts."