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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
341
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Posted - 2014.06.24 06:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just tonight I played 3 games where my entire team was suppressed by 5 people, 2 incubus rail pilots with a gunner each and a rail tank. They literally slaughtered my entire team, even when we used an opposing rail tank and dropship w/ gunner plus an ally in a missile turret (which has unlimited range). I was the dropship pilot with Gallente ADS 5 and it was pretty obvious that the opposing incubus had Gallente ADS skills by both gunner and pilot because I was getting cleanly out gunned despite getting the drop on him twice, having a missile turret shooting at him, and a rail tank. Then we lost our rail tank because the second incubus dipped into the redline (where we were barely holding them off) and slew our tank before he had a chance to react. After loosing 2 dropships and 2 tanks we gave up and watched the incubuses rail blast infantry with a fervor of a religious zealot. They ended up going 39/1, 35/2, and 12/1, and 12/2 while not a single person on our team managed to have a positive KD/R. This was worst than a proto stomp. We were redlined within the first 2 minutes of the match. |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3889
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Posted - 2014.06.24 06:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I hardly think that the outcome of this coordinated effort determines that dropships are overpowered. Also please distinguish the difference between ADS and a DS because I'll be damned if people cry about a Grimsnes.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3739
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Posted - 2014.06.24 06:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your writing is awesome! Very descriptive and emotive :)
Also I agree with you.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
AmLogi 5 GÇó AmAss 5 GÇó AmSent 4 GÇó CalScout 5
CalLogi, you're next!
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Rizlax Yazzax
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
350
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Posted - 2014.06.24 09:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
I haven't played since Bravo so can't comment from experience, but when vehicles didn't work why didn't any of you try infantry AV? Not only are you a much smaller target, I've read it is bordering on OP at the moment.
Also it sounds like you got redlined by good pilots and teamwork, not the mere fact it was an ADS. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
2331
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Posted - 2014.06.24 10:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
So, teamwork is OP? Thanks for the info.
PSN: ogamega
I'm not a chef, i'm just a man who likes to cook.
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Yoma Carrim
Last VenDetta. Dark Taboo
585
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Posted - 2014.06.24 10:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
I believe Dust Fiend and other ADS pilots have been advocating removing the skill stack for gunners on ADS.
I.E. only the pilots skills would apply to the Dropship's Damage, Rate of Fire, and Ammo count.
Teamwork is fine but there is a difference between teamwork and abusing game mechanics.
Oh Heck
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
342
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I hardly think that the outcome of this coordinated effort determines that dropships are overpowered. Also please distinguish the difference between ADS and a DS because I'll be damned if people cry about a Grimsnes.
Very well, ADS are over powered right now. Specifically the incubus.
I have played since the open beta so I have seen my fair share of things that are OP, UP, and balanced and I can tell you that it will become increasingly evident that pilot/gunner ADS skills stacking is most certainly OP. The challenge of small rail turrets is their slow ROF and highly precise aiming with no splash. The problem with the incubus pilot/gunner ADS skills stacking is that it jacks the ROF up so much that it operates like an assault rifle, except each shot deals over 400 damage. I've seen a dropship pilot get 30+ kills before but the pilot really earned them. He picked his battles, let when he should, never stuck around long enough for AV to get him, and generally played intelligently. This difference was these guys just floated in the sky and slaughtered over 1/3 of the team between 2 people, they were slaying people so quickly that AV didn't even have a chance to fire a second shot at them and that's if their infantry didn't kill you first. This directly reminds me of when tanks were gods on the battle field back in open beta, nigh invulnerable and slaughters of teams. The counter to this used to be rail tanks but with their shorted range and the size of the battle field I was on they were as vulnerable to these ADS as an infantry person was. |
Gabriella Grey
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
111
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:Bojo The Mighty wrote:I hardly think that the outcome of this coordinated effort determines that dropships are overpowered. Also please distinguish the difference between ADS and a DS because I'll be damned if people cry about a Grimsnes. Very well, ADS are over powered right now. Specifically the incubus. I have played since the open beta so I have seen my fair share of things that are OP, UP, and balanced and I can tell you that it will become increasingly evident that pilot/gunner ADS skills stacking is most certainly OP. The challenge of small rail turrets is their slow ROF and highly precise aiming with no splash. The problem with the incubus pilot/gunner ADS skills stacking is that it jacks the ROF up so much that it operates like an assault rifle, except each shot deals over 400 damage. I've seen a dropship pilot get 30+ kills before but the pilot really earned them. He picked his battles, let when he should, never stuck around long enough for AV to get him, and generally played intelligently. This difference was these guys just floated in the sky and slaughtered over 1/3 of the team between 2 people, they were slaying people so quickly that AV didn't even have a chance to fire a second shot at them and that's if their infantry didn't kill you first. This directly reminds me of when tanks were gods on the battle field back in open beta, nigh invulnerable and slaughters of teams. The counter to this used to be rail tanks but with their shorted range and the size of the battle field I was on they were as vulnerable to these ADS as an infantry person was.
LOL Assault dropships are very far from being OP. I am an exclusive pilot. My entire lifetime skill points are dedicated to them. I have flown in closed beta to the present. ADS are starting to be in a comfortable place, but basic dropships are not. The reason is they are out performed by all other vehicles, unable to fly away from hostile ground targets, and have a fighting chance when engaging an ADS. Dumbing down the ADS and any dropship at this moment only makes any effort to improve them void, placing them back the way they were in chromosome. Now to me it doesn't sound like you are flying but rather hovering and shooting using gunners. That's the worse thing to do with a dropship for long periods of time. If you have a gunner on your door, assault or standard dropship, you have the advantage to constantly change your angle while a turret is shooting at the apposing dropship or vehicle. I have never seen such a high kill rate from a dropship as you have described, but if what you are saying is true it sounds like that is pure team effort to blame and your argument is just another rant that would see this game catered to your personal taste on how the game should be rather than whats better for the game as a whole. This type of feedback is the reason why the game I feel is in the current state it is in.
Always Grey Skies
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
499
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Posted - 2014.06.24 15:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Two identifiable problems you are talking about: - Skill stacking: as others have said, pilot skill stacking is OP. - Teamwork: while they were abusing the hell out of the skill stacking, they were working closely as a team, which is OP...but completely allowed to be.
Let's get skill stacking removed in Charlie. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
342
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Posted - 2014.06.24 15:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gabriella Grey wrote:LOL Assault dropships are very far from being OP. I am an exclusive pilot. My entire lifetime skill points are dedicated to them. I have flown in closed beta to the present. ADS are starting to be in a comfortable place, but basic dropships are not. The reason is they are out performed by all other vehicles, unable to fly away from hostile ground targets, and have a fighting chance when engaging an ADS. Dumbing down the ADS and any dropship at this moment only makes any effort to improve them void, placing them back the way they were in chromosome. Now to me it doesn't sound like you are flying but rather hovering and shooting using gunners. That's the worse thing to do with a dropship for long periods of time. If you have a gunner on your door, assault or standard dropship, you have the advantage to constantly change your angle while a turret is shooting at the apposing dropship or vehicle. I have never seen such a high kill rate from a dropship as you have described, but if what you are saying is true it sounds like that is pure team effort to blame and your argument is just another rant that would see this game catered to your personal taste on how the game should be rather than whats better for the game as a whole. This type of feedback is the reason why the game I feel is in the current state it is in.
Both of the opposing ADS had side gunners and so did I. What I am saying is that they were just hovering and blasting away my entire team. It was impossible to beat them ship to ship because they had 50% great ROF than I did, in fact I was getting downed so quick that my allies barely had any time to help me despite my most aggressive evasive maneuvers.
Also despite my title, I am not talking about regular dropships, I am talking about ADS. I have never seen someone go on the offensive with a regular dropship and actually succeed so clearly not talking about them.
I am all for ADS being effective but that was too much. |
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Cody Sietz
SVER True Blood Dirt Nap Squad.
3412
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Posted - 2014.06.24 16:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
I don't think its the ADS, I think this is the shared ADS skills combined that making the ADS more trouble then it actually is.
I don't know if CCP can shut off shared abilities applying to vehicles, but if it IS possible, then do that first before adjusting the Dropship in any way.
(I'm somewhat doubtful, because I don't think they can turn off shared squad vision)
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance
1017
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Posted - 2014.06.24 19:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I hardly think that the outcome of this coordinated effort determines that dropships are overpowered. Also please distinguish the difference between ADS and a DS because I'll be damned if people cry about a Grimsnes.
Calling it now, "DROPSHIPS" ARE OP AS HELL!
Tanks - Balancing Turrets
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CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION
1175
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Posted - 2014.06.24 19:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Going against a well fit rail Incubus with a missile fit - sounds to me like the expected outcome!
Even in my python with maxed out missiles I am very cautious about rail Incubus with good skills now. Its a good battle in the air these days! Rails are bloody powerful now trust me!
Investigate 9/11
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Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
342
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Posted - 2014.06.24 20:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Going against a well fit rail Incubus with a missile fit - sounds to me like the expected outcome!
Even in my python with maxed out missiles I am very cautious about rail Incubus with good skills now. Its a good battle in the air these days! Rails are bloody powerful now trust me!
I wasn't using a missile fit. I had a friend in a missile installation then I and my gunner were using rails. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
11117
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:I hardly think that the outcome of this coordinated effort determines that dropships are overpowered. Also please distinguish the difference between ADS and a DS because I'll be damned if people cry about a Grimsnes.
Indeed. Dropships are dangerous but not OP.
What probably was OP about that set up was the skill stacking they had going on.
" Those men died loving duty more than they feared death..... they died well."
-Templar Ouryon after Iesa III
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
3322
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
lol how about you use swarm launchers in combination with cloaked scouts. As soon the dropship turns its blindspot onto you start unleashing swarms. The dropship either flys away with a afterburner or gets destroyed. And trust me you need to slow down by quite a bit to make small railguns work vs infantry. And you have the advantage cause from distance infantry is hard to spot and another thing is when you use a decent headset you can figure its location out just by the sound it makes. |
DUST Fiend
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
14468
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Posted - 2014.06.25 12:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Pilot stacking is OP and sorry to say it, but only scrubs think it's balanced.
Sadly, many pilots seem to believe it's balanced.
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jerrmy12 kahoalii
New Age Empire. Proficiency V.
1543
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Posted - 2014.06.25 12:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:Just tonight I played 3 games where my entire team was suppressed by 5 people, 2 incubus rail pilots with a gunner each and a rail tank. They literally slaughtered my entire team, even when we used an opposing rail tank and dropship w/ gunner plus an ally in a missile turret (which has unlimited range). I was the dropship pilot with Gallente ADS 5 and it was pretty obvious that the opposing incubus had Gallente ADS skills by both gunner and pilot because I was getting cleanly out gunned despite getting the drop on him twice, having a missile turret shooting at him, and a rail tank. Then we lost our rail tank because the second incubus dipped into the redline (where we were barely holding them off) and slew our tank before he had a chance to react. After loosing 2 dropships and 2 tanks we gave up and watched the incubuses rail blast infantry with a fervor of a religious zealot. They ended up going 39/1, 35/2, and 12/1, and 12/2 while not a single person on our team managed to have a positive KD/R. This was worst than a proto stomp. We were redlined within the first 2 minutes of the match.
http://youtu.be/FopyRHHlt3M
Closed beta vet.
If bo burnham was on my little pony
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
518
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Posted - 2014.06.25 12:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Sadly, many pilots seem to believe it's balanced. They do? I don't think I've seen anyone express their opinion that it is fine: I've seen people say ADSs are fine, but no the skill stacking. |
Texs Red
DUST University Ivy League
342
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Posted - 2014.06.25 13:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
1*1.5=1.5 1.5*1.5=2.25
So skill stacking is actually a 125% increase to ROF.
Small proto rail, no bonuses ROF: 120 RPM DPS 868.4
Small rail, Single bonus (+50% ROF, +10% damage) ROF: 180 DPS: 1,432.9
Small rail, double bonus applied (+125% ROF, +21% damage) ROF: 270 DPS: 2,364.2
Math says, no wonder I was no match for the other dropship pilot. He had close to 1000 more DPS than me... Of course small rails don't apply 100% damage to vehicle (only infantry) so it wouldn't be truly 1000 DPS more but even if it was half that is still 500. |
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Pvt Numnutz
Watchdoge Explosives
1564
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Posted - 2014.06.25 14:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
As has been said in this thread many times, the only thing op about the assault dropship is the skill stacking of Assault dropship and the racial assault dropship skill. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was hilarious when nova jumped in my ship and we realized the rediculous ROF but we knew it was op and enjoyed it for a little for lol's. I thought it would have been fixed a while ago.
I would just like to say that the turret skills should still stack with the pilot. These being the, ammo, turn rate and reload skills. These give the gunner role a few skills to spec into and don't make the gun over powered. The 100% ROF and double damage are what is over powered when stacked. Even at 30% on my turret rotation speed my guns still get stuck to the side of the dropship when hard banking and my gunners say its not a very noticeable difference. So if a dedicated gunner wants to get more out of their dropships guns then they can skill into the 'gunner' tree. This will give them an edge over non skilled gunners, more flight time before resupply and maybe a noticeable difference in rotation speed, nothing that would make the turret over powered. |
Gabriella Grey
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
112
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Posted - 2014.06.25 18:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Texs Red wrote:Gabriella Grey wrote:LOL Assault dropships are very far from being OP. I am an exclusive pilot. My entire lifetime skill points are dedicated to them. I have flown in closed beta to the present. ADS are starting to be in a comfortable place, but basic dropships are not. The reason is they are out performed by all other vehicles, unable to fly away from hostile ground targets, and have a fighting chance when engaging an ADS. Dumbing down the ADS and any dropship at this moment only makes any effort to improve them void, placing them back the way they were in chromosome. Now to me it doesn't sound like you are flying but rather hovering and shooting using gunners. That's the worse thing to do with a dropship for long periods of time. If you have a gunner on your door, assault or standard dropship, you have the advantage to constantly change your angle while a turret is shooting at the apposing dropship or vehicle. I have never seen such a high kill rate from a dropship as you have described, but if what you are saying is true it sounds like that is pure team effort to blame and your argument is just another rant that would see this game catered to your personal taste on how the game should be rather than whats better for the game as a whole. This type of feedback is the reason why the game I feel is in the current state it is in. Both of the opposing ADS had side gunners and so did I. What I am saying is that they were just hovering and blasting away my entire team. It was impossible to beat them ship to ship because they had 50% great ROF than I did, in fact I was getting downed so quick that my allies barely had any time to help me despite my most aggressive evasive maneuvers. Also despite my title, I am not talking about regular dropships, I am talking about ADS. I have never seen someone go on the offensive with a regular dropship and actually succeed so clearly not talking about them. I am all for ADS being effective but that was too much.
Well I apologize if I misunderstood you. Those dropships are also glass cannons so to speak. I am no fan of this build when it deals with assault dropships for that purpose, but I haven't seen this build really effective. It has a high isk price, and an extreme low survivability. If this dropship had 2 other players that means that was less troops on the ground. If I was CCP I personally would remove turrets on the side of the ADS and place it where the ADS pilot can cycle from 2 different weapons on the front like infantry can. I think the bigger part of the issue you faced was several things. Teamwork, perhaps even other broken game mechanics exploited by infantry. I am not sure how CCP collects there data but if they would use data collected from Planetary Conquest they would easily see the broken mechanics that are exploited in this game. Can't really get frustrated though with the players using these broken mechanics, as the true issue is the slow turn around times for these major problems in the game and response acknowledgements to them. These issues just make me wonder if Legion will be any different just because they are changing the medium of how they deliver it. I hope CCP Rouge can break through all these issues that have been plaguing this game.
Always Grey Skies
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