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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15602
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Posted - 2014.06.24 20:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I honestly think we need to stay away from vehicle specific weapon profiles for a bit.
HP adjusting better solution for now.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15603
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15603
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Posted - 2014.06.24 21:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
and ultimately if you expect it to do something out in the field you just created a demand for another contract; Things can get developed if they persistently become an issue to soldiers. Tanks have a much higher IF than choppers do, meaning its harder for a javelin to lock them, and like I said before, the missile doesn't have the speed or maneuverability to hit a chopper. Even if it did, aircraft grade aluminum is not hard enough to set off the charge. Plus, choppers have flares and such to throw off anti air missiles, which we are sorely lacking.
Slight problems.
Javelins are pure IR.
How would a helo pilot know he was being locked onto and fired upon? Unless he saw the missile separation he wouldn't know to launch flares and if you're using a top down attack he's just as prone to must humans to not looking up. His war is beneath him usually. As proven through the entire cold war, lack of training and experience does not make a technologically superior position immune to technologically inferior methods in hands of highly experienced personnel. So the whole agility argument goes out the window soon as a chopper pilot is caught idling somewhere to probably gun down your friends across the street.
Also the IR signal from a helo is near the engine exhaust which on most helicopters is on the top or the tail rotor. The fragmentation warhead was specifically designed to frag against very soft targets not penetrate so even a near proximity causes it to go off for max effect.
Finally Structural Paneling made with Aircraft Aluminium Grade is strong enough from most directions of impact to set most detonators off.
There are exceptionally very few helicopters that can eat an anti tank munition anyways, the HInd being the only one off the top of my head due to the compartmentalized firewalls.
Also if you want to attack a chopper, you do it from the top is the best way to do it. total lack of armor and generally that is where the engines are located.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2014.06.24 22:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Also you guys to realize that there is a fragmentation warhead that is used in javelins that is very similar to fragmentation methods used for killing aircraft. Though mostly this is used for killing anything that isn't armored while it would still technically work just as good killing most commonly engaged armor targets.
Javelins are not suited for jets due to the short range though and slow speeds but things like gunships and helicopters are more than plausible targets as long as it has a strong IF signal to which just about every helo in the world has. I mean this is no different than shooting a javelin at a tank on top of a hill.
and ultimately if you expect it to do something out in the field you just created a demand for another contract; Things can get developed if they persistently become an issue to soldiers. Tanks have a much higher IF than choppers do, meaning its harder for a javelin to lock them, and like I said before, the missile doesn't have the speed or maneuverability to hit a chopper. Even if it did, aircraft grade aluminum is not hard enough to set off the charge. Plus, choppers have flares and such to throw off anti air missiles, which we are sorely lacking. Slight problems. Javelins are pure IR. How would a helo pilot know he was being locked onto and fired upon? Unless he saw the missile separation he wouldn't know to launch flares and if you're using a top down attack he's just as prone to must humans to not looking up. His war is beneath him usually. As proven through the entire cold war, lack of training and experience does not make a technologically superior position immune to technologically inferior methods in hands of highly experienced personnel. So the whole agility argument goes out the window soon as a chopper pilot is caught idling somewhere to probably gun down your friends across the street. Also the IR signal from a helo is near the engine exhaust which on most helicopters is on the top or the tail rotor. The fragmentation warhead was specifically designed to frag against very soft targets not penetrate so even a near proximity causes it to go off for max effect. Finally Structural Paneling made with Aircraft Aluminium Grade is strong enough from most directions of impact to set most detonators off. There are exceptionally very few helicopters that can eat an anti tank munition anyways, the HInd being the only one off the top of my head due to the compartmentalized firewalls. Also if you want to attack a chopper, you do it from the top is the best way to do it. total lack of armor and generally that is where the engines are located. Again, because jevelins are not fast or ma euverabke. Real life chopper pilots do not hover in one spot and rain death. They are always moving, always. This is because the most prevalent threat they face is an RPG, which is an unguided munition, and it is certainly easier to hit a stationary target than a moving one. Even then, a chopper does not have enough of an IR signature to get a lock. The only way to hit a chopper with one is to manually aim the rocket at a chopper, which as stated above, is difficult to do. Also, the fragmentation charge you mentioned does not use fragments. There are two charges. A precursor charge to detonate any reactive armor on the tank, and the penetrative charge that functions as I've described. As choppers do not have reactive armor, the precursor does next to nothing, because the explosion is not big enough to physically damage the chopper. EDIT: And as I pointed out, the forge gun does not use explosive charges, so the comparison doesn't hold up.
RPGs shot down quite a few choppers and they're slow and have NO tracking or accuracy and a similar type of anti tank warhead.
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Iron Wolf Saber
Den of Swords
15603
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Posted - 2014.06.25 00:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote: Which we adapted to by having choppers not stop moving. Most times when an RPG hits, the chopper is usually stationary, such as during a pick up or drop off. As well, those choppers are made for hauling, and are thus big and bulky. Much easier to hit than the Cobra attack chopper the Marine Corps uses. Usually when an attack chopper is hit, its from multiple RPGs fired at them at once, usually from different points.
And yet helos are still shot down by a man portable launchers. Also like you said just because US marines learned their lessons doesn't mean dirt poor third world countries (which are more likely to get shot with a javelin) are likely to still get shot down from everything such as a 40 mm grenade launcher, TOW missile. Javelins, and Stingers (try dodging the newest ones flares do not work against them and they still don't give a lock on signal against their targets)
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